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  • Can a true Christian lose the Holy Spirit

    I opened a thread similar to this but i guess it was too complex so lets keep it simple.

    Can a born again(by the spirit not just a "decision") believer lose the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant

    if so, provide Scripture

    if not, provide Scripture

    also when referencing the Spirits actions in the OT make sure you have Scripture as well that shows how that action is seen/done under the New Covenant

  • #2
    lol i guess i will start off

    here is one of the most popular passages used to illustrate the leaving of the Holy Spirit:

    Hebrews 10:26-31

    26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


    does this passage prove that the Holy Spirit will leave a born again Christian?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by reformedct View Post
      lol i guess i will start off

      here is one of the most popular passages used to illustrate the leaving of the Holy Spirit:

      Hebrews 10:26-31

      26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


      does this passage prove that the Holy Spirit will leave a born again Christian?
      No...not IMO. But who am I. I'm a sinner myself. Just b/c we have received the knowledge of Truth....that does not mean that we will not go on and sin no more. We are born into sin, and we live in this life with a carnal body. We will never be able to get away from sin....until God calls us home. We are save by Grace through Faith, which all comes from the Love that God has for each and everyone of us even though we do sin. That's why we need Him. That's why without Him we are nothing.

      God Bless,

      Dave
      In Christ Love

      BCF

      2 Peter 1:20-21:

      "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation. For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

      Search and believe the Scripture, before you believe anything man tells you.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by reformedct View Post
        lol i guess i will start off

        here is one of the most popular passages used to illustrate the leaving of the Holy Spirit:

        Hebrews 10:26-31

        26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


        does this passage prove that the Holy Spirit will leave a born again Christian?
        Yes, this Scripture shows that a believer can turn from God. Notice in the Scripture, this person "was" sanctified, they "were" set apart for God. And yet they turned back to the world.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by reformedct View Post
          I opened a thread similar to this but i guess it was too complex so lets keep it simple.

          Can a born again(by the spirit not just a "decision") believer lose the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant

          if so, provide Scripture

          if not, provide Scripture

          also when referencing the Spirits actions in the OT make sure you have Scripture as well that shows how that action is seen/done under the New Covenant
          Paul defines a person "in Christ" as a person who has a spirit like Christ. This sanctified spirit is one, among many, of the marks of those who belong to God.

          [When] Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. [Since] the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

          Romans 8:10-11

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
            Yes, this Scripture shows that a believer can turn from God. Notice in the Scripture, this person "was" sanctified, they "were" set apart for God. And yet they turned back to the world.
            Can you name me one Christian, who has not sinned, and turned their back on God?

            If so... then what you are saying is that none of us can be saved by Grace through Faith b/c we all sin everyday and turn our backs on God. And we are suppose to be set apart from the world by God.

            God Bless,

            Dave
            In Christ Love

            BCF

            2 Peter 1:20-21:

            "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation. For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

            Search and believe the Scripture, before you believe anything man tells you.

            Comment


            • #7
              "And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee." 2 Corinthians 1:21-22

              "He who has prepared us for this very thing [heaven] is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee." 2 Corinthians 5:5

              "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:11-14

              "do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30

              So, God has predestined Christians to believe in Him, yes? And when they believe in Him, he gives them the Holy Spirit as a guarantee. A guarantee of what? Well, looking at the contexts of these passages, the Holy Spirit is refered to as a guarantee of heaven or the ressurection. So, for the Holy Spirit to leave a Christian, for any reason, would be a breach of God's promised guarantee of heaven. So no, the Holy Spirit never leaves a Christian, because God has so willed that, one someone has become a Christian, the Holy Spirit remain as a guarantee of eternal life, and God does not change his mind.

              Secondly, God has given us the Holy Spirit as a seal. In ANE culture, a seal signified ownership or authorship. So, God has claimed us as his own. That which is owned cannot free itself from its owner, only the owner can renounce ownership. So you cannot drive out the Spirit. And God has given us the Spirit as promise, that we are sealed for the day of redemption So God will not retract the Spirit from us, because he has promised that we will bear the Spirit until and for he brings us to the day of redemption.


              Thats how I take it. What it says in Hebrews 6 does not have to refer to Christians, only those who have 'tasted of the Spirit.' Nonchristians frequently 'taste' of the Spirit, when he performs miracles, convicts of sin, etc. So I see Heb. 6 as the same as the unforgivable sin that Jesus describes: those nonchristians who encounter the Holy Spirit but want nothing to do with salvation.

              The offer of salvation has been extended to them, and rejected. Since they have the fullest revelation of the Spirit one can have outside of Christ, and they have rejected it, what else could be done to save them?
              "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." -Mahatma Gandhi

              Comment


              • #8
                They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

                If they went out from us, they were never of us, for if they were of us, they would have remained with us, thus perseverance of those who are born again must be.

                If a person is born again, he will be endure and persevere until the end for if he fails, God fails, for God makes him stand, will and work according to God's good purposes.

                My God never fails. Perhaps another person's god might fail.

                I also have other verses to show this, but they may be taken out of context.

                For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

                whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned

                he has crossed over from death to life

                All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

                For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.;

                The sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.;

                there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.;

                Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.;

                for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.;

                He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.;

                he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.;

                it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ.

                He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.;

                it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.;

                Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession;

                he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.;

                When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.;

                May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.;

                by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy;

                we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.;

                who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.;

                No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.;

                Everyone born of God overcomes the world.;

                I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.;

                anyone born of God does not sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.

                Care for more?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
                  Yes, this Scripture shows that a believer can turn from God. Notice in the Scripture, this person "was" sanctified, they "were" set apart for God. And yet they turned back to the world.

                  i appreciate your response.

                  Yes, it is clear that a "believer" can turn from God

                  However, my question is not can a "believer" turn from God or fall from faith/grace

                  my question is specifically: Will the Holy Spirit leave a true born again believer under the New Covenant. please provide scripture and explanation

                  the key phrase in this passage is which "he was sanctified"

                  i believe sanctified also means set apart. could it also be interpreted that this person was simply set apart by physically being among the physical gatherings of the church, similar to this verse?:

                  2nd Peter 2:17-22

                  17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. 18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves [6] of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”



                  notice it says they have escaped the defilements of the world thru their knowledge of Jesus Christ, but turn from the holy commandment. It does not say that they are true believers, they simply were "sanctified" for a time. it seems that sanctification in this sense is simply refferring to people who walk among true believers then leave the faith

                  notice the emphasis on their knowledge of the word and the holy commandment, but no trust or dedication to that commandment


                  also a clue in the hebrew passage is this: profaned the blood of the covenant. other translations read: counted the blood of the covenant as a common thing. it seems this is a person who does not cherish the Lord Jesus


                  either way lets not forget the main question:

                  is there any Scripture that clearly states in word or concept that a true born again believer can lose the Holy Spirit

                  i dont believe this passage clearly states a true believer is being talked about and it also does not say the Spirit left that person. it says He was outraged. thats all. we cannot read things into the passage

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
                    They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

                    If they went out from us, they were never of us, for if they were of us, they would have remained with us, thus perseverance of those who are born again must be.

                    If a person is born again, he will be endure and persevere until the end for if he fails, God fails, for God makes him stand, will and work according to God's good purposes.

                    My God never fails. Perhaps another person's god might fail.

                    I also have other verses to show this, but they may be taken out of context.

                    For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

                    whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned

                    he has crossed over from death to life

                    All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

                    For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.;

                    The sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.;

                    there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.;

                    Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.;

                    for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.;

                    He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.;

                    he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.;

                    it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ.

                    He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.;

                    it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.;

                    Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession;

                    he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.;

                    When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.;

                    May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.;

                    by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy;

                    we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.;

                    who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.;

                    No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.;

                    Everyone born of God overcomes the world.;

                    I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.;

                    anyone born of God does not sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.

                    Care for more?
                    thank you very much for your input. it is because of verses like these that i do not see the Holy Spirit leaving anyone who has been truly born of God. sealed, gurantee, sound pretty secure

                    it is my understanding THAT THERE IS NO VERSE that clearly states without subjective speculation that the Holy Spirit will leave a born again Christian under
                    the New Covenant ( i want to emphasise new covenant because i am aware the Spirit empowered prophets and kings in the OT and did at times leave them. However we are under a new covenant with the law written on our hearts, born from above by the Spirit)

                    i have heard about outraging the Spirit of Grace
                    greiving the Spirit
                    and quenching the Spirit
                    but never seen, heard, or read about the Spirit saying bye-bye to the born again under the New Covenant according to the shed blood of the eternal God

                    but i am open to hear anyone's interpretation of a passage that would prove me wrong

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
                      Yes, this Scripture shows that a believer can turn from God. Notice in the Scripture, this person "was" sanctified, they "were" set apart for God. And yet they turned back to the world.
                      The Hebrews were set apart

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Chimon View Post
                        "And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee." 2 Corinthians 1:21-22

                        "He who has prepared us for this very thing [heaven] is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee." 2 Corinthians 5:5

                        "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:11-14

                        "do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30

                        So, God has predestined Christians to believe in Him, yes? And when they believe in Him, he gives them the Holy Spirit as a guarantee. A guarantee of what? Well, looking at the contexts of these passages, the Holy Spirit is refered to as a guarantee of heaven or the ressurection. So, for the Holy Spirit to leave a Christian, for any reason, would be a breach of God's promised guarantee of heaven. So no, the Holy Spirit never leaves a Christian, because God has so willed that, one someone has become a Christian, the Holy Spirit remain as a guarantee of eternal life, and God does not change his mind.

                        Secondly, God has given us the Holy Spirit as a seal. In ANE culture, a seal signified ownership or authorship. So, God has claimed us as his own. That which is owned cannot free itself from its owner, only the owner can renounce ownership. So you cannot drive out the Spirit. And God has given us the Spirit as promise, that we are sealed for the day of redemption So God will not retract the Spirit from us, because he has promised that we will bear the Spirit until and for he brings us to the day of redemption.


                        Thats how I take it. What it says in Hebrews 6 does not have to refer to Christians, only those who have 'tasted of the Spirit.' Nonchristians frequently 'taste' of the Spirit, when he performs miracles, convicts of sin, etc. So I see Heb. 6 as the same as the unforgivable sin that Jesus describes: those nonchristians who encounter the Holy Spirit but want nothing to do with salvation.

                        The offer of salvation has been extended to them, and rejected. Since they have the fullest revelation of the Spirit one can have outside of Christ, and they have rejected it, what else could be done to save them?
                        very good points. it seems that outraging the Spirit of grace is the same as blaspheming the Holy Spirit, aka the unpardonable sin, aka rejecting Christ and rejecting the calling of the Holy Spirit aka rejecting the Gospel

                        a true Christian has all sins forgiven. not 50% of sin, 85% or 99.9%, but all. Not sins before 5pm today only, or just the sins before they got saved, and if any man should sin, we have an advocate. Jesus is constantly making intercession on our behalf, as Job made intercession for his foolish friends. where there is no sin there is no need for intercession. there is no unpardonable sin for those who will be presented blameless before the Father

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for *he* hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

                          Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (irrevocable)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            so then, it seems the Scriptures do not teach that the Spirit will leave the true new-covenant believer, but rather the Christian has been bought, sealed, and recieved the Spirit as a guatantee

                            if anyone has scripture to refute this without subjectively reading things into the text, please post

                            however i think it is clear that the Spirit will not leave the believer. that being answered, it leads to another logical question:

                            can a born again believer, with the Spirit of God in them, go to hell? the Bible teaches that the Spirit is our guarantee and has sealed us. So is it possible to still go to hell even though one has been sealed?

                            if not,

                            i think it is safe to conclude that salvation is secure, not based on perserverance, or falling away from faith, or turning from God, but on the seal of the Holy Spirit, the gurantee of our inheretence.

                            In order to disprove OSAS, we must first prove the Spirit will leave us under the new covenant, if it does, case closed. NOSAS wins.

                            If it does not leave us as Scripture seems to say, in order to disprove OSAS, we must say that a person sealed by the Spirit can still go to hell while he is sealed, which i do not believe there are any scriptures

                            or

                            somehow someway, maybe during the judgement, the Lord will remove the seal at the end of time. i also donot know of any scriptures that would support this notion


                            As a recap, let us remember the question at hand.

                            It is not can a believer turn from God. we see many "believers" turn from God, people who "believe" for awhile BUT HAVE NO ROOT.

                            the question however is can the Holy Spirit under the new covenant leave a born again believer.

                            i have yet to read a scripture or passage that clearly promotes this idea?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by reformedct View Post
                              my question is specifically: Will the Holy Spirit leave a true born again believer under the New Covenant. please provide scripture and explanation
                              another

                              Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

                              I didn't see it posted. If it has been I apologize.

                              Comment

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