Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Fall from EDEN

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Fall from EDEN

    Today as I celebrated the birth of Christ i did some reflection on being saved and why we need to be saved and it brought me back to the story of creation. As much as I am a Christian I am also someone with a lot of scientific background so I tend to always ask a lot of questions and answer them with another question. If we are to take the bible as a literal historic document and not a set of parables to teach the word of God then I have found a flaw in the fall from grace. When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge they had no knowledge of good and evil until they ate from the tree. So yes God told them not to eat but because they had no knowledge of sin or good and evil there act can not be seen as an unrighteous act. Their actions was not an intent to turn their nose up at Gods law and act with a knowing knowledge of what they were about to do was wrong. If i put a raw steak in front of my dog and tell him not to eat it can you guess what is going to happen as soon as I turn my back. It is not that he is doing with an evil intent its just that is his instinct. And yes man is different from animals in that we have a soul and can choose between right and wrong but Adam and Eve could not choose between right or wrong or good and evil because they had no knowledge or distinctions between the two. So it is quite a harsh punishment for someone who did not know they were doing wrong. Which would seem unjust and we know God cannot make an unjust action because he is pure good.

  • #2
    Originally posted by rationalist View Post
    So it is quite a harsh punishment for someone who did not know they were doing wrong. Which would seem unjust and we know God cannot make an unjust action because he is pure good.

    I am inclined to agree with you, rationalist. I beleive the story of the fall was a part of God's plan for good, and not evil. It seems He wanted us to experience his mercy and forgiveness. Without the fall, there would have been no need for Jesus' work of salvation, and He knew he would be sacrificing himself before He created the world and everything else.

    Aloha

    The Antichrist will be taught and raised by the christian church. He will come from your own, not from the "outsiders". "Thus saith the Eternal, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house. . . ."

    Comment


    • #3
      But even if that is true, Adam and Eve chose to do what God told them not to do, that did not require a conscious decision to "be evil" but it did require a conscious decision to disobey God. A knowledge of good and/or evil was not necessary, only whether or not they would obey God or not. Plus God told them when they ate from the tree they would surely die, so in believing the serpent over God, they did more than "wrong" they disbelieved God, they believed another over God.

      Whether or not or how much about good and evil they understood I guess we cannot understand. I think it is safe to say that Adam and Eve were not primitive morons, they were most likely quite intelligent. Not to mention, prior to their disobedience they were not spiritually dead, but they were spiritually alive. I would think they were anything but stupid.. They chose another over God, they chose to trust another over trusting their Creator, the Creator they had communion with.


      sigpic

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by rationalist View Post
        If we are to take the bible as a literal historic document and not a set of parables to teach the word of God then I have found a flaw in the fall from grace. When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge they had no knowledge of good and evil until they ate from the tree. So yes God told them not to eat but because they had no knowledge of sin or good and evil there act can not be seen as an unrighteous act. Their actions was not an intent to turn their nose up at Gods law and act with a knowing knowledge of what they were about to do was wrong.
        They had no intimate (know) knowledge. It's not that they didn't understand the commandment or that no meant no. Scripture is clear -they 'received' the commandment. Those that sinned after them til Moses sinned without the commandment. It just means they were innocent and sinless and didn't intimately know what evil was, like a child. When they ate from that tree there eyes were opened to the evil they had done, and....
        God said, 'man has become like us, to know good and evil' so knowing wasn't evil. God knows, having created all things, therefore creating man to live in the environment of faith with the ability to choose good and evil. Man intimately learned what that meant, and the ramifications of their decisions.

        Comment


        • #5
          Their disobedience to God's plain command was coupled with an insidious doubt about God's loving care for them (sound familiar?). Satan had poisoned their minds that God has been holding back 'godhood' from them.

          For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
          (Gen 3:5)

          Apparently it worked-

          And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
          (Gen 3:6)
          ♪ Each day may Christ become clearer, His Cross dearer, Our Hope nearer. ♫

          Comment


          • #6
            I agree that you can equate them as innocent children therefore how could they have done such a terrible sin to be thrown from the garden and be put into exile. I know if I were to put a piece of candy in front of my one year old child and told him not to eat it and his older brother picked it up and gave it to him its going in. How would you discipline your child? Now if a teenager took a gun and shot another knowing it was wrong then I think the punishment would be fitting. Again with out the knowledge of what they were doing was wrong; why such a harsh punishment. We make choices everyday based on what is right or wrong. If we did not have that knowledge we would be making choices blindly without knowing the consequences. Have you ever heard of court cases where down syndrome children are coaxed into doing something terrible by someone who knows better. They are not locked up and thrown away with the key.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by rationalist View Post
              I agree that you can equate them as innocent children therefore how could they have done such a terrible sin to be thrown from the garden and be put into exile. I know if I were to put a piece of candy in front of my one year old child and told him not to eat it and his older brother picked it up and gave it to him its going in. How would you discipline your child? Now if a teenager took a gun and shot another knowing it was wrong then I think the punishment would be fitting. Again with out the knowledge of what they were doing was wrong; why such a harsh punishment. We make choices everyday based on what is right or wrong. If we did not have that knowledge we would be making choices blindly without knowing the consequences. Have you ever heard of court cases where down syndrome children are coaxed into doing something terrible by someone who knows better. They are not locked up and thrown away with the key.

              Sometimes I think the reason there is so much debate on what is intended by the text is because we are reading too much into it. I could be wrong (likely). I think the 'account' of the fall is a story, one intended to reveal God to us, not a historical account. Actually, I think the story was intended to teach the children of Moses' time not to disobey their parents, or else. I'm wondering if anyone has changed their life because of how they interpreted the fall passage?

              The Antichrist will be taught and raised by the christian church. He will come from your own, not from the "outsiders". "Thus saith the Eternal, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house. . . ."

              Comment


              • #8
                Because of there unbelief in the words of the Lord they were wrong.

                Not that they were wrong to eat the fruit but that they were wrong because they forsook the Lords words.

                It was never said that it was wrong to eat the fruit but it was said, don't eat it.

                Right is to obey the words of the Lord.
                Wrong is to forsake the words of the Lord.

                This is why I say that they did no wrong in eating the fruit but rather they did wrong because they forsook the Lord.
                And forsaking the Lord is something that starts within the heart and is hidden.
                Then it takes on the form of a action which can be proven and clearly seen.

                You asked that if you put a steak before a dog what do we think would happen.

                But what if that dog had a garden full of food and it had never tasted steak?
                And what if it was told that it would die if it ate the steak?

                And if it ate then the pact will stand.

                By justice we are justified to kill the poor animal.
                But because of mercy we might spare it that it might repent.
                Even though we know of the great perversion of it's heart which will arise because of the event.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by rationalist View Post
                  I agree that you can equate them as innocent children therefore how could they have done such a terrible sin to be thrown from the garden and be put into exile. I know if I were to put a piece of candy in front of my one year old child and told him not to eat it and his older brother picked it up and gave it to him its going in. How would you discipline your child? Now if a teenager took a gun and shot another knowing it was wrong then I think the punishment would be fitting. Again with out the knowledge of what they were doing was wrong; why such a harsh punishment. We make choices everyday based on what is right or wrong. If we did not have that knowledge we would be making choices blindly without knowing the consequences. Have you ever heard of court cases where down syndrome children are coaxed into doing something terrible by someone who knows better. They are not locked up and thrown away with the key.

                  There's a HUGE flaw in your "flaw" theory...
                  The difference between the Garden & the example of a child giving a younger child something he wasn't supposed to have is this;

                  Adam & Eve were NOT children. They were adults.... they were able to make decsions based on their thougts & free will, knowing also what was commanded of them.

                  In the case of the "children" you gave; it's an entirely different situation.
                  While the older child might understand it was wrong, the younger one is presumably naive to what the "rule" was.... thus not making a willfully disobedient act.

                  Here's the thing I MUST point out to you;

                  Adam and Eve knew exactly what was commanded of them.
                  Satan tricked them in the Garden with his smooth talk...
                  God did NOT set anyone up to fail, but rather had the plan of salvation in effect BEFORE he even created Heaven, the Angels, the Universe, & Mankind. He knew what would happen.... yet still cherished the relationship with us, based on OUR PERSONAL CHOICE.

                  One last thing, there's more to reading the Bible than reading it "literally" or "historically"..... it's a blend of every type of communication, in order to convey the message & the lessons.

                  You MUST MUST MUST learn to understand context, & communication style. Example;the Psalms are poetry... and not a "literal" writing.... correct?

                  And are you able to understand everyday communication, whether it be newspaper articles, or movies, or novels, or daily conversations???? How do you know what to take "literally" & what to take as metaphoric, or poetic?
                  Those same rules DO apply to Biblical reading.

                  Once you understand THAT, then SOOOO MANY of your "questions/accusations" will be answered & more clear to you.

                  I just wanted to add my reply, so I could possibly help......, since you're asking the same question, and making the exact same point, in basically the exact same wording, as I've read on "atheist/agnostic" websites.... all in an attempt to stir the pot -so to speak.
                  Hebrews 11:1 Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
                  _______________________________________________
                  There was a time when I used to think Macro-evolution might be a possibility..... but then I GREW UP!
                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  Meike & I have the same birthday! Na-na na, na-na!!!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rationalist View Post
                    Today as I celebrated the birth of Christ i did some reflection on being saved and why we need to be saved and it brought me back to the story of creation. As much as I am a Christian I am also someone with a lot of scientific background so I tend to always ask a lot of questions and answer them with another question. If we are to take the bible as a literal historic document and not a set of parables to teach the word of God then I have found a flaw in the fall from grace. When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge they had no knowledge of good and evil until they ate from the tree. So yes God told them not to eat but because they had no knowledge of sin or good and evil there act can not be seen as an unrighteous act. Their actions was not an intent to turn their nose up at Gods law and act with a knowing knowledge of what they were about to do was wrong. If i put a raw steak in front of my dog and tell him not to eat it can you guess what is going to happen as soon as I turn my back. It is not that he is doing with an evil intent its just that is his instinct. And yes man is different from animals in that we have a soul and can choose between right and wrong but Adam and Eve could not choose between right or wrong or good and evil because they had no knowledge or distinctions between the two. So it is quite a harsh punishment for someone who did not know they were doing wrong. Which would seem unjust and we know God cannot make an unjust action because he is pure good.
                    Once the commandment came, sin sprang to life, and they died.

                    God made the law to increase the transgressions. You think God gave Adam and Eve a commandment thinking they wouldn't break it? God gave it to them because He KNEW they would break it. This is no flaw. This is the way God intended it.

                    How could God have mercy and grace if not for sin?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      First of all thank you for all of your replies. Very thoughtful and some interesting points. One of the reason I asked the original question was to get everyone's thought on wether to take the story as literal or a parable. I personally read it as a parable. However I have been scorned when discussing this with preachers when I have suggested that some things in the bible are not literal. The reason I had a hard time with it is a literal historical description was because the action was done before the knowledge was there which I have already tried to point out but some of your responses said it was still the choice to disobey God. But I would argue it is more of an instinctual act that they did because choices are made with the knowledge of the consequences which they did not have. Then I proposed that punishment was harsh and from what I understand that most people are saying was that God had already planned for our salvation before we were even created and that he knew that man would choose to eat from the tree before he even put it there. Which God is all powerful and all knowing. How else can God show his mercy on us if not for sin. So it was kind of a set up from the beginning which is still not possible because God is not capable of such an act he is pure good.


                      Your thoughts?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Again, you start off on a false premise. Adam was not setup but made his choice with knowledge.

                        Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          How did Adam make his choice with knowledge if he had not eaten from the tree of knowledge yet?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rationalist View Post
                            How did Adam make his choice with knowledge if he had not eaten from the tree of knowledge yet?
                            Not having knowledge about something does not mean we cannot make a decision. Probably not the best way to make a decision, but it is still possible to do so.

                            The knowledge of good and evil did not prevent Eve from being persuaded and deceived by Satan's lie and choosing to eat from the tree of knowledge, Satan convinced her that the knowledge was something good to be gained, that there was wisdom to be gained, and she chose to eat. Adam also chose to eat in direct disobedience to what God has said to him. Lack of having the knowledge, from the 'tree of knowledge' did not prevent them from making a choice to eat from the tree.


                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Im not trying to be argumentative but you said it yourself that Satan convinced Eve it was good to eat from the tree. But they had no concept of good and evil so that would have been impossible. If you look at human behavior all actions are a result of a choice which is based on the knowledge that something while not always evident will happen with an outcome that is either good or bad. That is what separates us from animals. We have the cognitive ability to rationalize between a good choice or a bad choice. Not that we always choose the correct choice. However if you look at an animal there actions are not based on choice but on an inherent genetic instinct. For instance a lion doesn't think if killing another animal or human is a right or wrong think to do, it is just what it does. An action done with no knowledge of wright or wrong or good or evil is just an instinctual action and not a choice and therefore cannot be judged as doing right or wrong and therefore not be punished. I am not saying man isn't inherently evil and the only was for salvation is through Jesus. But what I am saying is that whoever wrote the story of Adam and Eve in my opinion was only tying to tell a parable to describe the inherent evil in man. If it was a literal historic description of what actually took place then there is a huge paradox.

                              Your thoughts ?

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X