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  • Total Inability of Man

    this thread is not for a "team" to debate their "side" of the issue.

    the purpose of this thread is to answer this one question, using nothing more than Scripture:

    Is man, apart from an inward act/work of God, able to choose salvation?

    in other words, is man, left to himself, apart from God, in a state of Total Inability to come to God, love God, trust God, truly repent, truly put faith in Christ

    lets try to stay focused on the question at hand and not drift off into discussions of unconditional election and predestination and such

    let the games begin

  • #2
    Originally posted by reformedct View Post
    this thread is not for a "team" to debate their "side" of the issue.

    the purpose of this thread is to answer this one question, using nothing more than Scripture:

    Is man, apart from an inward act/work of God, able to choose salvation?

    in other words, is man, left to himself, apart from God, in a state of Total Inability to come to God, love God, trust God, truly repent, truly put faith in Christ

    lets try to stay focused on the question at hand and not drift off into discussions of unconditional election and predestination and such

    let the games begin



    Personally, I find it somewhat of a problem to support any position/conclusion with just Scripture. Why? Because, while the Scripture may appear to support a certain position, that's not always the case when the context also needs to be considered. I can put forth Scriptures all day long and claim that it means this, that it means that, and still be completely in error because I didn't also consider the context. I think you're simply asking a tall order if you expect your question to be answered on Scripture alone.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by reformedct View Post
      this thread is not for a "team" to debate their "side" of the issue.

      the purpose of this thread is to answer this one question, using nothing more than Scripture:

      Is man, apart from an inward act/work of God, able to choose salvation?

      in other words, is man, left to himself, apart from God, in a state of Total Inability to come to God, love God, trust God, truly repent, truly put faith in Christ

      lets try to stay focused on the question at hand and not drift off into discussions of unconditional election and predestination and such

      let the games begin

      Apart from God? Would you be willing to elaborate? How can a man be apart from God when God is omniscient and omnipresent? I believe the Spirit of God can and does communicate with man. The Heavens declare His glory. So if God could and would completely withdraw Himself from man I suppose that man couldn't come to God, love God, trust God, truly repent, truly put faith in Christ. To me its kinda like asking if a man can truly breathe underwater apart from oxygen. No.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by mikebr View Post
        Apart from God? Would you be willing to elaborate? How can a man be apart from God when God is omniscient and omnipresent? I believe the Spirit of God can and does communicate with man. The Heavens declare His glory. So if God could and would completely withdraw Himself from man I suppose that man couldn't come to God, love God, trust God, truly repent, truly put faith in Christ. To me its kinda like asking if a man can truly breathe underwater apart from oxygen. No.

        let me clarify what i mean by "apart from God"

        i mean a man who is just a plain, ordinary sinner. Can he in and of himself repent and believe apart from being born again. hope that helps

        even if we cant all agree on a conclusion lets at least discuss.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by reformedct View Post
          let me clarify what i mean by "apart from God"

          i mean a man who is just a plain, ordinary sinner. Can he in and of himself repent and believe apart from being born again. hope that helps

          even if we cant all agree on a conclusion lets at least discuss.
          Let me ask you friend...do you remember a time when you were totally apart from God?
          In Christ Love

          BCF

          2 Peter 1:20-21:

          "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation. For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

          Search and believe the Scripture, before you believe anything man tells you.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by reformedct View Post
            let me clarify what i mean by "apart from God"

            i mean a man who is just a plain, ordinary sinner. Can he in and of himself repent and believe apart from being born again. hope that helps

            even if we cant all agree on a conclusion lets at least discuss.
            I say no. And the reason being is that we are separated from Him, and while we have some measure of understanding of right and wrong, we do not really have an accurate understanding of the fact that we are indeed sinners facing death, and in need of a Redeemer to wash away our sins. In other words, I believe our pride would be standing in the way, same pride that tends to get us in trouble most days.

            I believe we owe everything to Him, that in no matter can we take credit for having turned to Him. We know we did not pay for our sin, but I mean, there is in no other way that we can credit ourselves, not even for knowing we are sinners and knowing we need a Savior

            1Jn 4:19 We love Him because He first loved us.

            I believe the Holy Spirit convicts the heart of sin, at which time we have a choice to make.
            Joh 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:


            sigpic

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            • #7
              Originally posted by reformedct View Post
              let me clarify what i mean by "apart from God"

              i mean a man who is just a plain, ordinary sinner. Can he in and of himself repent and believe apart from being born again. hope that helps
              It's a rhetorical question. You cannot separate the sinner from the God who designed the environment in which man man could choose to sin or obey. If we say man who has a spirit and soul created by God for God seeks God then he does so because of how he was created.

              Comment


              • #8
                When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
                (Mat 19:25-26)

                And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
                (Mar 10:26-27)
                ♪ Each day may Christ become clearer, His Cross dearer, Our Hope nearer. ♫

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                • #9
                  God created this world and not man.
                  So then when has man been without God?

                  I think that God hid his face from us that we might not force wrath in our wickedness. But that when we see his face again we will be found as saved by Christ and worthy of his presence. But certainly God is with us spiritually and provides for us the way and the light.

                  In any case this does remind me of a passage from Isaiah.
                  18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
                  19If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

                  I think that not only are we capable of doing these things but deep down we know these things without being told. And these "things" that are deep down are like a light.

                  That is where our ability to choose comes into play.
                  We have the ability to cover that light and blot it out.
                  Which begins a chain reaction.
                  And we also have the ability to take away its covering.
                  Which begins a chain reaction.

                  These abilities are our abiblity to "choose" to do something but these choices are allready weighed and fashioned by God. So nothing man does is "on his own" in the sense of him creating the choice and then making it. But rather only in the sense of he either chooses right or wrong. The right way is the narrow way the wrong way is wide.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    John 3:3-7
                    Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
                    I think Jesus is saying that spiritual birth can come only from the Holy Spirit.
                    You were made to think. It will do you good to think; to develop your powers by study. God designed that religion should require thought, intense thought, and should thoroughly develop our powers of thought.

                    Charles G Finney



                    http://holyrokker.blogspot.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by reformedct View Post
                      this thread is not for a "team" to debate their "side" of the issue.

                      the purpose of this thread is to answer this one question, using nothing more than Scripture:

                      Is man, apart from an inward act/work of God, able to choose salvation?

                      in other words, is man, left to himself, apart from God, in a state of Total Inability to come to God, love God, trust God, truly repent, truly put faith in Christ

                      lets try to stay focused on the question at hand and not drift off into discussions of unconditional election and predestination and such

                      let the games begin
                      The question is moot,


                      John 12:32 ( KJV ) 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        No, man apart from God cannot. Everyone needs the help of the Holy Spirit in order to turn to God. But it does require us to respond to the call of God, in other words God desires all people to come to Him 2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MacGyver View Post
                          No, man apart from God cannot. Everyone needs the help of the Holy Spirit in order to turn to God.
                          What scripture says this?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sirus View Post
                            What scripture says this?
                            Maybe he is thinking of this scripture Sirus: John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Maybe?

                            1st John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

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                            • #15
                              I know he was but it doesn't say any such thing. The context clearly says the work of the Father is to believe in the Son and that it is the Son's flesh and blood we must partake of. The Father draws by the Cross just as Jesus said was the work he would do. There is nothing in either passage about the Spirit doing anything.
                              BTW; notice 'every man hath heard' in there?
                              Like Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

                              The Cross

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