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  • In the beginning God created or restored....

    Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    Genesis 1:2 - And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    Was = Hayah (Hebrew), it means became/becomes.

    (And the earth became formless, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.[HEBREW])

    What do you think? Something is not right... It has nothing to do with the 6 days. Before the 6 days something happened.

    Millions of christians believes that the earth is 6,000 years old, while there are thousands of proofs that says other wise.

    Sciences proofs the bible.

    (6)And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

    Where did the water come from? restoring not creating...

    (7)And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

    Not creating out of nothing, but making out of something..

    (9)And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

    Where did the dry land come from? it was already there, covered with water.
    We are his body, We are his representative, We are the extension of God to the earth. Every action should be a extension of God's love.

  • #2
    This is what some people/Christians have believed through out history that it was not creation out of nothing. But creation out of something. In other words God has existed since all time but either the world was also there or the authors of the Bible do not mention or know how the earth got here so they just start with the world was void and formless. It is also interesting to note that almost always water is opposed to God it is choactic but God is ordered. One of the reasons on the new earth there will be no more sea, because it is the oldest enemy of God. It is used to destory in the time of Noah and still brings great destruction.

    So what we see in the 1st chapter and beginning of the 2nd of Genesis (ie the 1st creation story) we see God ordering what is there and creating new things. While in the 2nd creation story we read that God made the earth and the heavens. In this one everything is made for the purpose of mankind. Whereas in the 1st creation story man is the end result of creation.

    So it comes down to take which story you like better do you like that there was something here and God ordered it and made it into what he wanted or do you want there to have been nothing and God makes things just the way he wants them.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Bladers View Post
      Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

      Genesis 1:2 - And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

      Was = Hayah (Hebrew), it means became/becomes.

      (And the earth became formless, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.[HEBREW])

      What do you think? Something is not right... It has nothing to do with the 6 days. Before the 6 days something happened.

      Millions of christians believes that the earth is 6,000 years old, while there are thousands of proofs that says other wise.

      Sciences proofs the bible.

      (6)And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

      Where did the water come from? restoring not creating...

      (7)And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

      Not creating out of nothing, but making out of something..

      (9)And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

      Where did the dry land come from? it was already there, covered with water.
      ... The answer for this entire set of ideas is the same and it goes right back to the early 1950s six grade science class. The first rule was and is that everything has a root cause and therefore nothing can be the result of nothing. The only way that something can result from nothing is for an external force to be awesomely super powered and to create it. Even if you disbelieve God (and if you do there can be no salvation) and go back to the severely crippled Big Bang lunacy, the critical mass had to have an origin or a cause that is external of our existence. You, very simply, cannot place God inside a test tube and explain Him. The wisest thing any man can ever do is to accept what God has said because God is true.

      Comment


      • #4
        A college professor who is the head of a major science dept at a major college and who is also a Christian has said that the Bible tells us "why" - not "how", and science attempts to explain "how".
        So, I prefer not to get all bent out of shape about the numbers in the Bible. To me, there is no way that the earth could be 6000 years old. But that does not bother me. I still believe in God and that the Bible is His inspired word.
        ...be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man, that Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be full of strength to apprehend with all the saints what the breadth and length and height and depth are and to know the knowledge-surpassing love of Christ, that you may be filled unto all the fullness of God. Eph. 3:16-19

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bladers View Post
          Where did the water come from?
          I would love for you to tell us, using Scripture to prove your position.



          Originally posted by Bladers View Post
          Not creating out of nothing, but making out of something..

          Who is claiming to the contrary?

          Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

          This is where God created something out of nothing.
          What does He then do next? He starts forming, and establishing order, in relation to what He had created. This can easily be seen in Psalms 104, among other places, too numerous to list.


          Originally posted by Bladers View Post
          Where did the dry land come from? it was already there, covered with water.

          Exactly! I won't argue with you there.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by divaD View Post
            I would love for you to tell us, using Scripture to prove your position.
            Jeremiah had a vision of the creation and spoke of it, but he saw it backwards. Read and study it from verse 27 to 23

            Backwards

            (27)For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.(fully destroy it[will restore it])

            (26)I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

            (25)I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

            (24)I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

            (23)I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.


            Well, He didnt just show it to Jeremiah. But He also showed it to Job.

            Job 9:5-8

            5 He moves mountains without their knowing it
            and overturns them in his anger.

            6 He shakes the earth from its place
            and makes its pillars tremble.

            7 He speaks to the sun and it does not shine;
            he seals off the light of the stars.

            8 He alone stretches out the heavens
            and treads on the waves of the sea.

            This all leads to Verse 8 of Job and this is all talking about Genesis 1:2 - And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

            This is telling us, some time in Earth's History. He was so angry, He destroyed the mountains, shook the earth, and shut up the stars and heavens.

            Same thing that God showed Jeremiah



            He also showed it to Isaiah, My brother He did not leave any of the prophets out of touch.

            Isaiah 24:1 - Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.

            The LORD GOD was so angry, He turned the earth up side down(LITERALLY)!
            We are his body, We are his representative, We are the extension of God to the earth. Every action should be a extension of God's love.

            Comment


            • #7
              IMO, the forming is part of the creation process. God creates it then begins to form it as a part of the creation process.

              Some things needed to be created. Some things could be formed from what was already created by God.

              Chad

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by chad View Post
                IMO, the forming is part of the creation process. God creates it then begins to form it as a part of the creation process.

                Some things needed to be created. Some things could be formed from what was already created by God.

                Chad

                Did you look at the scriptures from job and jeremiah?

                My brothers, where do demons come from? they also explain it
                How was dinosaurs destroyed? they explain it!
                We are his body, We are his representative, We are the extension of God to the earth. Every action should be a extension of God's love.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Do you want more? then open your spiritual eyes and hears.

                  Genesis 6:6-7 : And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

                  God says He will destroy men and animals, not the earth.

                  2 Peter 3:5 - For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (6)Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (7)But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

                  The first question was, whence was the water that we see in Genesis 1:6,7 & 8. Lets Look at verse 5 in 2peter, and you will see whence that happened. Verse 5 explains it all. And then it continues to verse 6, "the world that then was". The world before adam. "being overflowed with water", we see that in Genesis 1:2 and in Job 9.


                  The world before adam:
                  This is the world that God created in the beginning and later destroyed by flood (Gen 1:1, Gen 1:2).

                  The world now:
                  This is the world that was restored after the great flood and will one day be destroyed by fire at the second coming (2Pe 3:7)

                  A new heavens and a new earth:
                  This is the world we will inhabit after the second coming (2Pe 3:13).
                  We are his body, We are his representative, We are the extension of God to the earth. Every action should be a extension of God's love.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bladers View Post
                    Jeremiah had a vision of the creation and spoke of it, but he saw it backwards. Read and study it from verse 27 to 23

                    Backwards

                    (27)For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.(fully destroy it[will restore it])

                    (26)I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

                    (25)I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

                    (24)I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

                    (23)I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
                    This is prophecy concerning Judah, just as Jeremiah 3 is prophecy concerning Israel. Specifically what would happen if Israel and Judah did not repent from their sins against God.

                    This is not a "vision of creation". It speaks of future, limited judgment. Not past, earth wide judgment.

                    Originally posted by Bladers View Post
                    Well, He didnt just show it to Jeremiah. But He also showed it to Job.

                    Job 9:5-8

                    5 He moves mountains without their knowing it
                    and overturns them in his anger.

                    6 He shakes the earth from its place
                    and makes its pillars tremble.

                    7 He speaks to the sun and it does not shine;
                    he seals off the light of the stars.

                    8 He alone stretches out the heavens
                    and treads on the waves of the sea.

                    This all leads to Verse 8 of Job and this is all talking about Genesis 1:2 - And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

                    This is telling us, some time in Earth's History. He was so angry, He destroyed the mountains, shook the earth, and shut up the stars and heavens.

                    Same thing that God showed Jeremiah
                    Well in my reading of Job 9 this neither refers to Jeremiah nor to Genesis 1:2. I don't really know what else to say besides... (re)read the account? This is completely out of context and just wrong.

                    Originally posted by Bladers View Post
                    He also showed it to Isaiah, My brother He did not leave any of the prophets out of touch.

                    Isaiah 24:1 - Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.

                    The LORD GOD was so angry, He turned the earth up side down(LITERALLY)!
                    Actually read the entire chapter, you're taking this verse (all of these verses) out of context. Again, future [limited] judgment (Israel and Edom in the case of Isaiah), not past.

                    Originally posted by Bladers View Post
                    Do you want more? then open your spiritual eyes and hears.

                    Genesis 6:6-7 : And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

                    God says He will destroy men and animals, not the earth.

                    2 Peter 3:5 - For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (6)Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (7)But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

                    The first question was, whence was the water that we see in Genesis 1:6,7 & 8. Lets Look at verse 5 in 2peter, and you will see whence that happened. Verse 5 explains it all. And then it continues to verse 6, "the world that then was". The world before adam. "being overflowed with water", we see that in Genesis 1:2 and in Job 9.


                    And if I ask the question, "Where did the water for this flood come from?" would you reply, "from the flood before this"? There is nothing in these two sections of scripture that would even begin to indicate anything other than the flood in Noah's days is being referenced.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bladers View Post
                      (6)Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:



                      2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;


                      According to the way you interpret 2 Peter ch 3, we may as well ignore what we learned in ch 2? 2 Peter 2:5 tells us EXACTLY what the world that then was in 2 Peter ch 3. It was the world of the ungodly. When? During Noah's time, and not in some unproven prev earth age.

                      2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
                      6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:


                      Notice in both of these verses the uses of 'earth' and 'world'. Now look up both words in the Greek. They are not the same Greek words. Now go back to 2 Peter 2:5 and look at 'world' in that verse. This is the same Greek word used for world in 2 Peter 3:5. This means that in 2 Peter 3:5, earth and world can't mean the same thing. This is where you need to start. You need to first decide what 'earth' and ''world' mean, and what they're related to, before you can even suggest that 2 Peter ch 3 points to a prev unknown earth age. That's not what ch 2 says.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by divaD View Post
                        2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;


                        According to the way you interpret 2 Peter ch 3, we may as well ignore what we learned in ch 2? 2 Peter 2:5 tells us EXACTLY what the world that then was in 2 Peter ch 3. It was the world of the ungodly. When? During Noah's time, and not in some unproven prev earth age.

                        2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
                        6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:


                        Notice in both of these verses the uses of 'earth' and 'world'. Now look up both words in the Greek. They are not the same Greek words. Now go back to 2 Peter 2:5 and look at 'world' in that verse. This is the same Greek word used for world in 2 Peter 3:5. This means that in 2 Peter 3:5, earth and world can't mean the same thing. This is where you need to start. You need to first decide what 'earth' and ''world' mean, and what they're related to, before you can even suggest that 2 Peter ch 3 points to a prev unknown earth age. That's not what ch 2 says.
                        Chapter 2 is different from chapter 3. Why? God didnt destroy the earth during noah, He destroyed it before adam. Verse 5 of chapter 3 also proves it.
                        We are his body, We are his representative, We are the extension of God to the earth. Every action should be a extension of God's love.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Xel'Naga View Post
                          This is prophecy concerning Judah, just as Jeremiah 3 is prophecy concerning Israel. Specifically what would happen if Israel and Judah did not repent from their sins against God.

                          This is not a "vision of creation". It speaks of future, limited judgment. Not past, earth wide judgment.
                          My brother, your the one who is not reading these verses in the spirit, you can not interpret them in the flesh. It is impossible.. Its like you didnt even read it.


                          "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

                          Thats is so simple... If you think thats the future. I'm sorry to tell you but your wrong, what your saying is that God will destroy the heavens and the earth if israel and judah doesnt repent. And if you don't see the connection of job 9 and Jeremiah 4, then i dont think you read it.
                          We are his body, We are his representative, We are the extension of God to the earth. Every action should be a extension of God's love.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            (7)But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

                            (6)Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

                            The world before adam perished not the people of the world after him. "was", "past-tense", not existing anymore
                            world = heavens and earth


                            (5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

                            Here it also mentions that the heaven was of old. Nevertheless the other scriptures from Jeremiah 4 and Job 9, spoke of this.
                            We are his body, We are his representative, We are the extension of God to the earth. Every action should be a extension of God's love.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Bladers View Post
                              (7)But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

                              (6)Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

                              The world before adam perished not the people of the world after him. "was", "past-tense", not existing anymore
                              world = heavens and earth


                              (5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

                              Here it also mentions that the heaven was of old. Nevertheless the other scriptures from Jeremiah 4 and Job 9, spoke of this.
                              Bladers,

                              You are absolutely correct the word "was" is past tense, and since Moses wrote Genesis and not Adam, he used the appropriate context of the word. The only gap between verses 1 and 2 in Genesis 1 is the natural gap that occurs between sentences that are separated in verse form. How many times did God have to try this experiment we know as life?
                              Hell....the nightmare you can't wake up from.

                              Sin is like electricity, it takes the path of least resistance. (the shortest path to ground).

                              Jesus said He is “The Way”, not “A” way. Jesus said He is “the Truth”, not “A” truth. Jesus said He is “The Life”, not “A” life. No man comes to the Father but by Me. Are we serving a man or are we serving God?

                              Comment

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