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if you dont believe in Unconditional Election

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  • if you dont believe in Unconditional Election

    just a quick question. How would you explain God sending people to hell who have grown up in a pagan culture in which the name of Jesus is never taught? like some foreign 3rd world area where no one has even heard of the Bible? If salvation is based on us choosing, how can God judge those who had no oppurtunity presented to choose Jesus?

    i know every human being has a concscience, but can a person somehow, out of follwing their concsience, come to faith in Jesus Christ when they have never heard of Him?

    Also, why didnt God reveal Himself and speak to ALL the nations in the Earth instead of just Israel? All those people who died in other nations who never knew who YHWH was? Did they have ippurtunity for choice?

  • #2
    Generally, I stay out of these threads. But here's what scripture says about it...

    Rom 1:18-21

    18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    NASB

    God placed a witness to himself inside these men, but they rejected that witness. God in his mercy, will hide things from those that reject what light they get. For the more light one has, the more harsh the judgment. The cities of Jesus day will be judged more harshly than Sodom because Sodom didn't have the light they did. And if Sodom would have had that kind of light, they would have repented.

    Matt 11:23-24
    23 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You shall descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. 24 "Nevertheless I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you."
    NASB

    Had those miracles occurred in Sodom, Sodom would have responded to God. But they didn't get more light because they rejected the light they had just as Romans 1 speaks of.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
      Generally, I stay out of these threads. But here's what scripture says about it...

      Rom 1:18-21

      18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
      NASB

      God placed a witness to himself inside these men, but they rejected that witness. God in his mercy, will hide things from those that reject what light they get. For the more light one has, the more harsh the judgment. The cities of Jesus day will be judged more harshly than Sodom because Sodom didn't have the light they did. And if Sodom would have had that kind of light, they would have repented.

      Matt 11:23-24
      23 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You shall descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. 24 "Nevertheless I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you."
      NASB

      Had those miracles occurred in Sodom, Sodom would have responded to God. But they didn't get more light because they rejected the light they had just as Romans 1 speaks of.
      i definetly believe God Himself has manifested and revealed His existence thru nature and in the conciousnce, however the Bible also says FAITH comes by Hearing and Hearing by the WOrd of God? so what if people don't hear the worD of God? Or what about the mentally challenged??

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by reformedct View Post
        i definetly believe God Himself has manifested and revealed His existence thru nature and in the conciousnce, however the Bible also says FAITH comes by Hearing and Hearing by the WOrd of God? so what if people don't hear the worD of God? Or what about the mentally challenged??
        If God placed a witness of himself inside a man, is that not hearing God?


        Rom 1:18-19

        18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
        NASB

        So then, they had faith, but they suppressed it and rejected what they knew to be truth and it was evident to them because God made it evident to them. Faith wasn't their issue.
        Matt 9:13
        13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
        NASU

        Comment


        • #5
          Here is an article that I wrote on this, though I will edit it in order to not promote Catholicism....


          Does God send people to Hell who have never had an opportunity to ever hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ? There are so many opinions on this that it would take lots of time to go through them all, but I am going to keep this as concise as possible.


          A quote from a source edited: 1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.


          Ignorance of the Gospel of Jesus Christ will be judged by God justly, and only God who is all-knowing and all-powerful can correctly determine the will of everyone who has ever lived from the beginning of time to the end of time. He is the one who knows how those people who had never heard the Gospel would have handled or mishandled their free-will if they had actually had the chance to learn about the Gospel.



          Scripture gives us some good examples of how God handles ignorance (when I say ignorance I mean simply lack of knowing, not stupidity)

          John 15:
          22 If I (Jesus) had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.


          Acts 17:30
          The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead."



          Both of these passages of Scripture shows that God demonstrates a great deal of flexibility when it comes to ignorance as well as a great deal of responsibility for those who are not ignorant. This same flexibility is still valid for those in this world who have had no opportunity to learn about the Gospel, even though there has been a tremendous amount of evangelization that has happened ever since Christ established the Church 2000 years ago. There are still many people throughout the Church age who have never been evangelized.



          So is ignorance a blessing because of the flexibility of God? By no means because everyone will be judged by God fairly, even those who are ignorant of the Gospel will be judged by how they have followed God with what knowledge He has revealed to them. And for those of us who do have the Gospel, we should understand that we are truly blessed that God has given us the complete revelation of Jesus Christ, this is not to be viewed as a burden (God forbid!!), but it is the greatest blessing that we could ever imagine!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
            If God placed a witness of himself inside a man, is that not hearing God?


            Rom 1:18-19

            18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
            NASB

            So then, they had faith, but they suppressed it and rejected what they knew to be truth and it was evident to them because God made it evident to them. Faith wasn't their issue.

            thank you for your input, this sheds some more light on the issue

            i just find it reeeeaallly hard to believe that ALL the people in those nations in the OT individually supressed the truth but thats what the Bible says i guess.

            Comment


            • #7
              So you can be saved without knowing about Jesus Christ and His work and the Trinity?
              sigpic

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              • #8
                Originally posted by BrckBrln View Post
                So you can be saved without knowing about Jesus Christ and His work and the Trinity?

                You can be unsaved while knowing about Jesus Christ and his work and the trinity.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by BrckBrln View Post
                  So you can be saved without knowing about Jesus Christ and His work and the Trinity?
                  Yes. But God is flexible only if ignorance comes by not choosing to be so, but one who tries to follow God with what signs He has revealed to them. There are plenty of people who will only allow themselves to know just enough so they don't feel like they are required to have a true life change and full repentance.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MacGyver View Post
                    Yes. But God is flexible only if ignorance comes by not choosing to be so, but one who tries to follow God with what signs He has revealed to them. There are plenty of people who will only allow themselves to know just enough so they don't feel like they are required to have a true life change and full repentance.

                    im not so sure about that. even though the OT saints didnt know Jesus by name. The somehow knew Him, because Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day or something like that.

                    If they dont know Jesus but can be saved then that would mean Muslims, Hindus and everyone else who is operating with the "light" they have will be saved, which is heresy, because all those people in the OT that were not of Israel worshipped false gods and were condenmed and killed because of it

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MacGyver View Post
                      There are plenty of people who will only allow themselves to know just enough so they don't feel like they are required to have a true life change and full repentance.
                      Then they are deceiving themselves into Hell. Not wanting to sound too blunt here, but noone is going to pull the wool over God's eyes.

                      He knows their hearts, and if they attempt to live a life deceptive to Him, to avoid responding to Him in repentance, then He will quickly escort them away telling them depart, I never knew you.

                      Paul taught clearly in Romans that there is no excuse.

                      Repentance is required of all men; a stiff, unrepentant, and haughty heart won't get anyone into Heaven.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by reformedct View Post
                        im not so sure about that. even though the OT saints didnt know Jesus by name. The somehow knew Him, because Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day or something like that.

                        If they dont know Jesus but can be saved then that would mean Muslims, Hindus and everyone else who is operating with the "light" they have will be saved, which is heresy, because all those people in the OT that were not of Israel worshipped false gods and were condenmed and killed because of it
                        Here are a couple of passages I posted above

                        John 15:22 If I (Jesus) had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.


                        Acts 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead."

                        I believe that those from other religions who have had no chance of knowing anything differently but have tried every way possible to follow God with a pure heart will be judged by God justly. I believe they will be judged by God according to a number of things, such as how they live, but most of all by God's all-knowing ability to know how that person would have responded to the Gospel if they actually had it presented to them.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                          Then they are deceiving themselves into Hell. Not wanting to sound too blunt here, but noone is going to pull the wool over God's eyes.

                          He knows their hearts, and if they attempt to live a life deceptive to Him, to avoid responding to Him in repentance, then He will quickly escort them away telling them depart, I never knew you.

                          Paul taught clearly in Romans that there is no excuse.

                          Repentance is required of all men; a stiff, unrepentant, and haughty heart won't get anyone into Heaven.
                          You got it!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MacGyver View Post
                            Yes. But God is flexible only if ignorance comes by not choosing to be so, but one who tries to follow God with what signs He has revealed to them. There are plenty of people who will only allow themselves to know just enough so they don't feel like they are required to have a true life change and full repentance.
                            That would qualify as willful ignorance like the ones of Isreal who rejected the Savior wouldn't it? Romans 10:3

                            1st John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by reformedct View Post
                              just a quick question. How would you explain God sending people to hell who have grown up in a pagan culture in which the name of Jesus is never taught? like some foreign 3rd world area where no one has even heard of the Bible? If salvation is based on us choosing, how can God judge those who had no oppurtunity presented to choose Jesus?

                              i know every human being has a concscience, but can a person somehow, out of follwing their concsience, come to faith in Jesus Christ when they have never heard of Him?

                              Also, why didnt God reveal Himself and speak to ALL the nations in the Earth instead of just Israel? All those people who died in other nations who never knew who YHWH was? Did they have ippurtunity for choice?
                              4,125 people die and go to hell every hour. Do they have opportunity? Of course! If they seek they will find. If they knock it will be opened to them. If they ask, they will receive. If they reject it is not because of God but the bride -- we have a poor witness, a bad attitude and a lot of secularism to overcome.

                              Additionally, their conscience will not convict or save them but may lead them to a place or person who can point the way to find salvation in Christ.
                              God's grace is not one size fits all, but rather "tailor made" for each person, an intimate, unique and amazing gift that continues to gift itself in countless ways.

                              Ephesians 4:4-7 ESV There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call-- one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each one of us (individually) according to the measure of Christ's gift.

                              Tea Party Member -- Not a Democrat nor a Republican.

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