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  • Discussion Modern Day Pharisees?

    Some/many of you think that I (& Fundamentalists) are modern day Pharisees. While I am attending a Fundamentalist seminary at a large University and there they strongly practice and teach the doctrine of separation. I cannot say that I agree with them entirely, and why my web ministry CERM is called a Conservative Evangelical web ministry and for that few Fundamentalist will associate with me.

    Why most of the Fundamentalists will black ball me.

    I sometimes will use the NIV
    I have a pic of me with a X-files T-shirt on my website and I do not condemn going to movies
    I at times listen to Newsboys among other CCM bands.

    For these reasons many Fundamentalist missions boards, schools, and churches will black list me.

    I modified my into to my separation article a little and said this.

    The practice of separation is heavily neglected among many Evangelicals and Charismatics, while it’s the doctrine that separates Fundamentalists from the bunch. Fundamentalists are known for their strong separation views, as well as their legalistic doctrines, which have earned them the name “modern day Pharisees.” But do Fundamentalists practice the doctrine of separation to the extreme?
    I desire to hear your input and your reasoning why you think Fundamentalists are "modern day Pharisees."

    I am writing my conclusion and will do my proof read to my article after.

    Thanks..

  • #2
    Modern day Pharisee, Not sure what that is? Is that someone who will kick you out of thier fellowship for not using the KJV of the bible ?


    Anyway, this is what the NT says about Pharisees.

    (Mt 5:20 NIV) For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    (Mat 23:2 NIV) "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
    (Mat 23:3 NIV) So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

    How Jesus describes the Pharisees in the New Testament

    Teachers of the law (Mt 2:4)

    Proud (Lk 18:11)

    Hypocrytes (Mt 15:6)

    Honour God with their lips, but not their hearts (Mt 15:8)

    Worship in Vain, but their hearts are far away (Mt 15:9)

    Their teachings are but rules taught by men (Mt 15:9)

    Do not practice what they preach (Mt 23:3)

    They tie heavy loads on mens shoulders, while they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to help (Mt 23:4)

    Everything they do is for men to see (Mt 23:5)

    They love the places of honour at banquets (Mt 23:6)

    And the most important seats in the market place (Mt 23:6)

    Shut the kingdom of God in menís faces, while they themselves do not enter nor let others do so. (Mt 23:13)

    They tithe but neglect the important matters of the law, justice, mercy and faithfulness (Mt 23:23)

    Clean the outside of the cup, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence (Mt 23:25)

    Appear to people as righteous, but on the inside they are full of hypocrisy and wickedness (Mt 23:28)

    Chad

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by poochie View Post
      Some/many of you think that I (& Fundamentalists) are modern day Pharisees. While I am attending a Fundamentalist seminary at a large University and there they strongly practice and teach the doctrine of separation. I cannot say that I agree with them entirely, and why my web ministry CERM is called a Conservative Evangelical web ministry and for that few Fundamentalist will associate with me.
      Let me ask you something Poochie. Has God disassociated himself from you? If not, then why would your brethren do such a thing? And would they be in the will of God to do so?


      Why most of the Fundamentalists will black ball me.

      I sometimes will use the NIV
      I have a pic of me with a X-files T-shirt on my website and I do not condemn going to movies
      I at times listen to Newsboys among other CCM bands.
      I love the Newsboys. Do you like the song "He Reigns"? It's one of my favorites. That and "Beautiful Sound". There are many more.

      For these reasons many Fundamentalist missions boards, schools, and churches will black list me.
      Do you think they honor God for doing so? If Jesus were here, would he walk with you?

      I desire to hear your input and your reasoning why you think Fundamentalists are "modern day Pharisees."
      My brother, it is not for me to decide if you are a pharisee or not or your brethren. It is important to know what the Lord God says though. In the end, my judgment can be wrong but His never will be.

      With that in mind, I find this passage interesting concerning separation as practiced by some.

      Luke 7:36-47

      36 Now one of the Pharisees was requesting Him to dine with him. And He entered the Pharisee's house, and reclined at the table. 37 And behold, there was a woman in the city who was a sinner; and when she learned that He was reclining at the table in the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster vial of perfume, 38 and standing behind Him at His feet, weeping, she began to wet His feet with her tears, and kept wiping them with the hair of her head, and kissing His feet, and anointing them with the perfume. 39 Now when the Pharisee who had invited Him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet He would know who and what sort of person this woman is who is touching Him, that she is a sinner." 40 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Simon, I have something to say to you." And he replied, "Say it, Teacher." 41 "A certain moneylender had two debtors: one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 "When they were unable to repay, he graciously forgave them both. Which of them therefore will love him more?" 43 Simon answered and said, "I suppose the one whom he forgave more." And He said to him, "You have judged correctly." 44 And turning toward the woman, He said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has wet My feet with her tears, and wiped them with her hair. 45 "You gave Me no kiss; but she, since the time I came in, has not ceased to kiss My feet. 46 "You did not anoint My head with oil, but she anointed My feet with perfume. 47 "For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little."
      NASB
      Matt 9:13
      13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
      NASU

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by poochie View Post
        Some/many of you think that I (& Fundamentalists) are modern day Pharisees. While I am attending a Fundamentalist seminary at a large University and there they strongly practice and teach the doctrine of separation. I cannot say that I agree with them entirely, and why my web ministry CERM is called a Conservative Evangelical web ministry and for that few Fundamentalist will associate with me.

        Why most of the Fundamentalists will black ball me.

        I sometimes will use the NIV
        I have a pic of me with a X-files T-shirt on my website and I do not condemn going to movies
        I at times listen to Newsboys among other CCM bands.
        ----------------------------------------------------------------

        For these reasons many Fundamentalist missions boards, schools, and churches will black list me.

        I modified my into to my separation article a little and said this.



        I desire to hear your input and your reasoning why you think Fundamentalists are "modern day Pharisees."

        I am writing my conclusion and will do my proof read to my article after.

        Thanks..

        ----------------------------------------------------------------------

        Good post Poochie...

        Yes I believe there are modern day Pharisees today... Chad gave a very good description of them.. and its Biblical... When it comes to the 'heart' I believe these modern day Pharisees 'show no mercy'... they are critical and condemning... and they 'elevate' themselves 'spiritually' above everybody else and those who don't follow their 'set' ways .. These often have Scripture memorized that would amaze many... yet they show no mercy, lack spiritual discernment, have a 'rightouensness of their own', do not understand justice. God's issue is your heart.. its intents and actions.. It can become 'hardened'... and its out of the 'issues' and the "secrets' of the heart where Jesus the Christ will judge.

        Man hasnt changed.. he is still lost and needs 'rebirth'.. no matter how good you dress it up... and mans 'spiritual condition'.. is still the same.. no matter if your rich, poor, healthy unhealthy etc.. that has not changed over the past 2000 years.... The only transforming that is of any value is the transforming God does when one is born again... this started by God and finished by Him...

        So to answer your question.. yes I believe there are modern day Pharisees out there.. I've met a few in my walk with Him...
        Many appear Righteous and Just because they say 'yes' to Jesus Christ , yet they don't do His Will.
        ------------------------------------------------
        Verily I say unto thee, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the Kingdom of Heaven before you do.
        ------------------------------------------------
        The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying. YEA, I have loved thee with an everlasting love; therefore with LOVINGKINDESS have I DRAWN THEE.
        Jeremiah 31:3

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by poochie View Post
          Some/many of you think that I (& Fundamentalists) are modern day Pharisees. While I am attending a Fundamentalist seminary at a large University and there they strongly practice and teach the doctrine of separation. I cannot say that I agree with them entirely, and why my web ministry CERM is called a Conservative Evangelical web ministry and for that few Fundamentalist will associate with me.

          Why most of the Fundamentalists will black ball me.

          I sometimes will use the NIV
          I have a pic of me with a X-files T-shirt on my website and I do not condemn going to movies
          I at times listen to Newsboys among other CCM bands.

          For these reasons many Fundamentalist missions boards, schools, and churches will black list me.

          I modified my into to my separation article a little and said this.



          I desire to hear your input and your reasoning why you think Fundamentalists are "modern day Pharisees."

          I am writing my conclusion and will do my proof read to my article after.

          Thanks..
          I had to give this post some thought over night. Going to seminary does not make anyone a Pharisee. Though I am sure there are Pharisees in seminary, just as there are in many places. But keep in mind that you are not talking about actual Pharisees, this was a sect of Judaism. I am sure you speak of the mindset Messiah rebuked that was prevelant in many Pharisees of that day.

          Pay no man any mind, you serve YHWH alone. Accept rebuke or reproof when it is warrented, and learn from it....but seek to please your Savior and worry not about the thoughts of those around you. You may be surrounded by many strong in the faith, you may be like Lot, one of a kind. Just do the will of your Father and let the chips fall where they may!

          Peace.
          Ken

          Comment


          • #6
            The Fundamentalists are not mean if you are a fellowship that worships God in a contemporary form, they just wont have anything to do with you. In my case it will mean they wont help me find church ministry, so this is why I keep some of my views to myself. But the time is coming for me to find to look for a job as my deadline is in May, and I hope that they help me, Lord willing. Unless some of my private conversations have squueched on me, they are not aware of my love for the Newsboys, Twila Parris, and that I attend a Conservative Southern Baptist Church in my home state.


            Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
            Let me ask you something Poochie. Has God disassociated himself from you? If not, then why would your brethren do such a thing? And would they be in the will of God to do so?




            I love the Newsboys. Do you like the song "He Reigns"? It's one of my favorites. That and "Beautiful Sound". There are many more.



            Do you think they honor God for doing so? If Jesus were here, would he walk with you?



            My brother, it is not for me to decide if you are a pharisee or not or your brethren. It is important to know what the Lord God says though. In the end, my judgment can be wrong but His never will be.

            With that in mind, I find this passage interesting concerning separation as practiced by some.

            Luke 7:36-47

            36 Now one of the Pharisees was requesting Him to dine with him. And He entered the Pharisee's house, and reclined at the table. 37 And behold, there was a woman in the city who was a sinner; and when she learned that He was reclining at the table in the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster vial of perfume, 38 and standing behind Him at His feet, weeping, she began to wet His feet with her tears, and kept wiping them with the hair of her head, and kissing His feet, and anointing them with the perfume. 39 Now when the Pharisee who had invited Him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet He would know who and what sort of person this woman is who is touching Him, that she is a sinner." 40 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Simon, I have something to say to you." And he replied, "Say it, Teacher." 41 "A certain moneylender had two debtors: one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 "When they were unable to repay, he graciously forgave them both. Which of them therefore will love him more?" 43 Simon answered and said, "I suppose the one whom he forgave more." And He said to him, "You have judged correctly." 44 And turning toward the woman, He said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has wet My feet with her tears, and wiped them with her hair. 45 "You gave Me no kiss; but she, since the time I came in, has not ceased to kiss My feet. 46 "You did not anoint My head with oil, but she anointed My feet with perfume. 47 "For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little."
            NASB

            Comment


            • #7
              The Fundamentalists at my school are very loving and kind individuals. However if you listen to CCM, attend a evangelical school/seminary, use the NIV as your default translation or the NLT, then they will not help you find a job, allow you to have a voice,etc..

              They claim that they love you, but if you listen to CCM and such they will show you no mercy and judge the living daylights out of you.

              Thats why in my article (which I will be sending to Fundamentalists) I will be arguing for a different position on separation for disobedient brethren as they do. I will argue that its sinful and wrong to separate and assume that all evangelicals and charismatic are bad and only they are righteous.

              But I do practice and endorse separation much more so than most evangelicals, but my view of separation may be more what John MacArthur would endorse.


              Originally posted by theBelovedDisciple View Post
              ----------------------------------------------------------------------

              Good post Poochie...

              Yes I believe there are modern day Pharisees today... Chad gave a very good description of them.. and its Biblical... When it comes to the 'heart' I believe these modern day Pharisees 'show no mercy'... they are critical and condemning... and they 'elevate' themselves 'spiritually' above everybody else and those who don't follow their 'set' ways .. These often have Scripture memorized that would amaze many... yet they show no mercy, lack spiritual discernment, have a 'rightouensness of their own', do not understand justice. God's issue is your heart.. its intents and actions.. It can become 'hardened'... and its out of the 'issues' and the "secrets' of the heart where Jesus the Christ will judge.

              Man hasnt changed.. he is still lost and needs 'rebirth'.. no matter how good you dress it up... and mans 'spiritual condition'.. is still the same.. no matter if your rich, poor, healthy unhealthy etc.. that has not changed over the past 2000 years.... The only transforming that is of any value is the transforming God does when one is born again... this started by God and finished by Him...

              So to answer your question.. yes I believe there are modern day Pharisees out there.. I've met a few in my walk with Him...

              Comment


              • #8
                I don't know if I would call them modern day pharisees, but I have heard it describes as operating in the spirit of the Pharisee, or having a Phariseeic spirit.

                Meaning they have the qualities and do similar things as the pharisees did. A dead give away sign is that they are legalistic and unmerciful.

                I guess nobody likes being called a pharisee, as Jesus did not have any thing good to say about them.

                However regarding your position, I can only suggest that you bring it to God in prayer.

                Chad
                Last edited by chad; Dec 31st 2008, 02:39 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by poochie View Post
                  The Fundamentalists are not mean if you are a fellowship that worships God in a contemporary form, they just wont have anything to do with you.
                  How is that kind Poochie?

                  In my case it will mean they wont help me find church ministry, so this is why I keep some of my views to myself. But the time is coming for me to find to look for a job as my deadline is in May, and I hope that they help me, Lord willing. Unless some of my private conversations have squueched on me, they are not aware of my love for the Newsboys, Twila Parris, and that I attend a Conservative Southern Baptist Church in my home state.
                  Would Jesus separate from you based on those things? Has God removed himself from the evangelicals?

                  Given the scripture I gave above, is it like pharisee to prevent others from "touching you" because they are sinners?
                  Matt 9:13
                  13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                  NASU

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    You do have a point Mark. I can say that Jesus would not distance himself from me because I listen to Newsboys and watch movies.

                    Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                    How is that kind Poochie?



                    Would Jesus separate from you based on those things? Has God removed himself from the evangelicals?

                    Given the scripture I gave above, is it like pharisee to prevent others from "touching you" because they are sinners?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by poochie View Post
                      You do have a point Mark. I can say that Jesus would not distance himself from me because I listen to Newsboys and watch movies.
                      Hello Poochie. People are very complicated. Many times we don't even know our own hearts or why we do certain things. Thank God he will search our hearts, and try us and show us any wicked way that is in us. Without his searching of me, I shudder to think where I may have ended up.

                      I spent many years in the fundamentalist movement. I definitely believe in the scriptures and all they say. They are full of wisdom and the word of the Lord is alive and sharper than any two edged sword. I suppose that's enough about me.

                      I wish to ask you to think on what I am about to write. I do not write it as a challenge to you or as a debate topic. I just write it for food for thought. You can reply if you wish. I just don't want you to think I desire to insight your emotions, or to challenge you or to belittle, judge or any other word such as these that come to mind. From my heart, to yours, I want to ask a few questions just to ponder.

                      When the pharisees saw people, they often looked for what the people were doing wrong and for reasons why they should not associate with them. What did Jesus say about that?

                      The pharisees also would see the law as the ultimate. When the woman was caught in adultery, they wanted her stoned because she had broken the law. They were right about what she deserved and her breaking of the law. Jesus was concerned more about the woman than he was her sin. Is the law meant for people or people for the law? Jesus was concerned for the welfare of the woman. The pharisee was concerned for the law. In other words, the pharisee focused on the law. Jesus focused on the person. Why?

                      The pharisees often compared themselves to others. Jesus even taught about it when he spoke of the prayer life of the pharisee "Father, I thank you that I am not like this publican..." What was Jesus reaction to this kind of thinking?

                      Anyway, just throwing some things out there. I hope you find a job as you move forward in life.

                      Grace and peace,

                      Mark
                      Matt 9:13
                      13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                      NASU

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The Fundamentalists are always open to helping restore and minister to their own kin in their churches and schools. But they will distance themselves in a heartbeat from contemporary evangelicals and those that listen to CCM.

                        They wont stone them, or wish them violence, they just wont have anything to do with them. Which in some ways is the modern way of being judgmental.

                        Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                        Hello Poochie. People are very complicated. Many times we don't even know our own hearts or why we do certain things. Thank God he will search our hearts, and try us and show us any wicked way that is in us. Without his searching of me, I shudder to think where I may have ended up.

                        I spent many years in the fundamentalist movement. I definitely believe in the scriptures and all they say. They are full of wisdom and the word of the Lord is alive and sharper than any two edged sword. I suppose that's enough about me.

                        I wish to ask you to think on what I am about to write. I do not write it as a challenge to you or as a debate topic. I just write it for food for thought. You can reply if you wish. I just don't want you to think I desire to insight your emotions, or to challenge you or to belittle, judge or any other word such as these that come to mind. From my heart, to yours, I want to ask a few questions just to ponder.

                        When the pharisees saw people, they often looked for what the people were doing wrong and for reasons why they should not associate with them. What did Jesus say about that?

                        The pharisees also would see the law as the ultimate. When the woman was caught in adultery, they wanted her stoned because she had broken the law. They were right about what she deserved and her breaking of the law. Jesus was concerned more about the woman than he was her sin. Is the law meant for people or people for the law? Jesus was concerned for the welfare of the woman. The pharisee was concerned for the law. In other words, the pharisee focused on the law. Jesus focused on the person. Why?

                        The pharisees often compared themselves to others. Jesus even taught about it when he spoke of the prayer life of the pharisee "Father, I thank you that I am not like this publican..." What was Jesus reaction to this kind of thinking?

                        Anyway, just throwing some things out there. I hope you find a job as you move forward in life.

                        Grace and peace,

                        Mark

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by poochie View Post
                          They wont stone them, or wish them violence, they just wont have anything to do with them. Which in some ways is the modern way of being judgmental.
                          You said volumes right there.

                          Who did Jesus have his harshest words for? Why was he so harsh?
                          Matt 9:13
                          13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                          NASU

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by poochie View Post
                            Some/many of you think that I (& Fundamentalists) are modern day Pharisees. While I am attending a Fundamentalist seminary at a large University and there they strongly practice and teach the doctrine of separation. I cannot say that I agree with them entirely, and why my web ministry CERM is called a Conservative Evangelical web ministry and for that few Fundamentalist will associate with me.

                            Why most of the Fundamentalists will black ball me.

                            I sometimes will use the NIV
                            I have a pic of me with a X-files T-shirt on my website and I do not condemn going to movies
                            I at times listen to Newsboys among other CCM bands.

                            For these reasons many Fundamentalist missions boards, schools, and churches will black list me.

                            I modified my into to my separation article a little and said this.



                            I desire to hear your input and your reasoning why you think Fundamentalists are "modern day Pharisees."

                            I am writing my conclusion and will do my proof read to my article after.

                            Thanks..
                            Fundamentalist or not, anyone who leads a church or is a leader in a church and manipulates with controling rules is a pharisee. Anyone who is paranoid about their position and forces people to do things is a Pharisee. Anyone in a church who says "I" and "me" and doesn't say "we" or "us" is a Pharisee
                            Amazzin

                            Obedience to God is more than a soldier obeying his commander. It is our grateful response to the Lover of our souls.

                            CHURCH: Where worship is enjoyed, not endured - Grace is preached, not legalism - And Christ is exalted, not religion!



                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I am a recovering pharisee.

                              So this fits from fischtank.com

                              The 12 Steps 1. We admit that our single most unmitigated pleasure is to judge other people.
                              2. Have come to believe that our means of obtaining greatness is to make everyone lower than ourselves in our own mind.
                              3. Realize that we detest mercy being given to those who, unlike us, haven't worked for it and don't deserve it.
                              4. Have decided that we don't want to get what we deserve after all, and we don't want anyone else to either.
                              5. Will cease all attempts to apply teaching and rebuke to anyone but ourselves.
                              6. Are ready to have God remove all these defects of attitude and character.
                              7. Embrace the belief that we are, and will always be, experts at sinning.
                              8. Are looking closely at the lives of famous men and women of the Bible who turned out to be ordinary sinners like us.
                              9. Are seeking through prayer and meditation to make a conscious effort to consider other better than ourselves.
                              10. Embrace the state of astonishment as a permanent and glorious reality.
                              11. Choose to rid ourselves of any attitude that is not bathed in gratitude.
                              12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we will try to carry this message to others who think that Christians are better than everyone else.


                              John Fischer

                              Comment

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