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Were the OT saints born again??

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  • Were the OT saints born again??

    Did people like Abraham and David and Joshua have a regenerated heart/new heart? DO you think that they were born again? Of course the SPirit was not indwelling them like He does since Christ has been glorified, but we definetly see the Spirit active in the lives of people in the OT

    so were they born again?

    because Jesus said unless you be born again you will by no means enter the kingdom of God. So wouldnt that kind of contradict Jesus teaching if they were not born again?

  • #2
    I can't see how anyone could go to the kingdom of God without being regenerate. As a matter of fact, nobody can love God without having their hearts of stone turned to hearts of flesh. Remember, it has always been the grace of the cross that save. Past, present, and future.
    The grace of God is amazing. He saved a wretch like me.

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    • #3
      No one entered heaven except for the Son of Man.

      However, we know that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

      Therefore, they were present with the Lord, but not in Heaven nor born again.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by reformedct View Post
        Did people like Abraham and David and Joshua have a regenerated heart/new heart? DO you think that they were born again? Of course the SPirit was not indwelling them like He does since Christ has been glorified, but we definetly see the Spirit active in the lives of people in the OT

        so were they born again?

        because Jesus said unless you be born again you will by no means enter the kingdom of God. So wouldnt that kind of contradict Jesus teaching if they were not born again?

        I could be wrong but it looks to me like this is a new birth experience that Saul received just before coming King and if he could get it then the rest of the OT saints could as well:

        1 Sam 10:6-9

        6 And the Spirit of the Lord will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
        7 And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.
        8 And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do.
        9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.
        Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

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        • #5
          In the O.T people were still saved by grace through faith. Abraham's faith was reckoned to him as righteousness before the law just as our faith is reckoned to us as righteousness by faith in Christ. If this were not so then would it not be the same as saying that no one received salvation before the Cross? Someone said something to the effect that O.T people were saved as they had faith in the coming Messiah and after Jesus the Messiah came people are saved by the faith in the Messiah Who has come.
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          • #6
            Could they have been born again long after their bodies of flesh died?
            Last edited by Walstib; Jan 4th 2009, 03:00 PM. Reason: spelling

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            • #7
              Jesus taught about being born again before he died. He acted surprised that a teacher would not understand the need for being born again. Being born again is not just a new testament doctrine.
              Matt 9:13
              13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
              NASU

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              • #8
                Originally posted by reformedct View Post
                Did people like Abraham and David and Joshua have a regenerated heart/new heart? DO you think that they were born again? Of course the SPirit was not indwelling them like He does since Christ has been glorified, but we definetly see the Spirit active in the lives of people in the OT

                so were they born again?

                because Jesus said unless you be born again you will by no means enter the kingdom of God. So wouldnt that kind of contradict Jesus teaching if they were not born again?
                well, the OT saints believed and prophesied Jesus birth before he even came to the earth... David was a man after God's own heart and Jesus will sit on the Throne of David to rule the earth... Moses and the prophets were considered great men... just read Hebrews 11... and Romans does say that the just shall live by faith..

                so my conclusion is that they were definitely born again
                The LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you,And be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you,And give you peace.” Numbers 6:24-26

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                • #9
                  I may agree that people could be born again as Mark said. But I my questions are honest.

                  I believe babies whose flesh dies go to heaven. As they must be born again, when does it happen?

                  I don't know as there is an answer but I think it worth considering as a question.

                  Joe

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Walstib View Post
                    I may agree that people could be born again as Mark said. But I my questions are honest.

                    I believe babies whose flesh dies go to heaven. As they must be born again, when does it happen?

                    I don't know as there is an answer but I think it worth considering as a question.

                    Joe
                    I like you a lot Joe. I think there are many questions that we don't know the answer too. Often, in trying to answer a question too quickly, we are led into error. Better to consider a question, and leave it unanswered than to try and make a general application throughout scripture.

                    Having said all that, could we say that John 3 was written to adults? "Except a man be born again..." and "Except you (Nicodemus, a man) be born again..."

                    I like to ask lots of questions too. Often though, when I see the answer is not so simple, I figure it best to leave it unanswered as my finite mind is limited in what it can grasp.
                    Matt 9:13
                    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                    NASU

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                    • #11
                      OT Saints

                      Being new on this forum, I'm hesitant to jump in due to lack of knowledge on how to navigate around the forum. However, I would like to weigh in on this question.
                      The word 'born' (John 3:3) in the original means 'to beget'. It is used in various ways in the New Testament (NT). Here in John 3:3 it is used metaphorically in the writings of the apostle John, of the gracious act of God in conferring upon those who believe the nature and disposition of `Children`imparting to them spritual life. The same word (in the orginal) is used in John 5:7, 1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1,4,18.
                      Having said that the focus is on those `who believe and receive the nature and disposition of children`. Someone above in their answer alluded to Abraham who `believed God and it was imputed (reckoned to his account) to him as righteousness.` (Romans 4:3-25). Abraham was `saved`using NT language. He believed God, that is, Abraham accepted the Word of God, making it his own by that act of the mind and spirit which is called faith, submitting himself to its control, therefore God accepted him as one who fulfilled the whole of His requirements.
                      Please note, that righteousness as used here is not imputed to the believer save in the sense that faith is imputed (reckoned is a better word) for rightousness. In the context it is `faith reckoned for righteousness` The word `for`does not mean ́nstead of`but `with a view to`. The faith that Abraham exercised brings the soul into vital union with God in Christ and inevitably produces righteousness of life, that is in conformity to the will of God.
                      Again as said above, OT saints looked forward to the coming Messiah, believing and obeying God`s word. However, like us even the best of OT saints failed. Moses, the meekest man that lived, failed when he acted in anger in striking the rock twice instead of speaking to it. David, a man after God`s own heart, committed adultery and so on. So they were no different than us in the present dispensation of grace. They lived in the dispensation of law. The Holy Spirit came upon them but didn`t indwell them as He does today with NT believers.
                      Hope this helps. Sorry for being so lengthy.
                      The Lord bless you all.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by reformedct View Post
                        Did people like Abraham and David and Joshua have a regenerated heart/new heart? DO you think that they were born again? Of course the SPirit was not indwelling them like He does since Christ has been glorified, but we definetly see the Spirit active in the lives of people in the OT

                        so were they born again?

                        because Jesus said unless you be born again you will by no means enter the kingdom of God. So wouldnt that kind of contradict Jesus teaching if they were not born again?
                        They were not born again. Until Christ went through incarnation, sinless human living, an all inclusive death and resurrection and became the Life-Giving Spirit, He did not indwell men. The Lord sometimes spoke through the prophets and spoke to those who loved Him such as David and Abraham, but He did not live within them.
                        His relationship with man was different then.
                        They had faith, but did not have Christ dwelling in them.
                        As saki said, the ot requirements of man were different than they are now.
                        ...be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man, that Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be full of strength to apprehend with all the saints what the breadth and length and height and depth are and to know the knowledge-surpassing love of Christ, that you may be filled unto all the fullness of God. Eph. 3:16-19

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                        • #13
                          ... Every time this question appears I am amazed. Jesus was very clear that no man could go to the father but through Him. For a man with as little education as myself I will never get over the idea that an answer so, in one's face, can escape notice but I guess He meant it when He explained that He spoke in parables so that those that did not follow Him could hear but not understand.
                          ... Jesus told the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man and from it we learned that the righteous went to a place called Abraham's Buxom and the unrighteous did not fair so well in eternity. A little historical research shows that there are two English name for this place of the Old Testament saint, the afore mentioned and Paradise. Now, before Jesus fulfilled His half of the new covenant by dying on the cross as the sacrifice for our sins, no man could enter into the presence of God because all men have sinned and were and are unclean.
                          ... Hanging on the cross Jesus promised the repentant thief that on that very day He would meet him in Paradise, not Heaven but Paradise a.k.a. Abraham's Buxom. The proof that this took place and that Jesus went and preached the New Covenant to the Old Testament saints is even there to be read in Matthew.
                          Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
                          Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
                          ... You see? Jesus turned them loose from captivity and escorted them into Heaven.

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