Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Could someone explain Matthew 11:12 to me?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Could someone explain Matthew 11:12 to me?

    "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force."

    Is this talked about anywhere else in scripture? I thought heaven was completely separated from evil and things of that sort?

  • #2
    Originally posted by TransformedSon View Post
    "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force."

    Is this talked about anywhere else in scripture? I thought heaven was completely separated from evil and things of that sort?
    I could be wrong but I don't think this is referring to heaven but to the kingdom here. Consider Jesus words,

    Luke 17:20-21 ( KJV ) 20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    Here is what Justin Martyr says regarding this, I don't know itf this will help you.

    Title : The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

    Chap. LI.—It Is Proved That This Prophecy Has Been Fulfilled. And when I ceased, Trypho said, “All the words of the prophecy you repeat, sir, are 221 ambiguous, and have no force in proving what you wish to prove.” Then I answered, “If the prophets had not ceased, so that there were no more in your nation, Trypho, after this John, it is evident that what I say in reference to Jesus Christ might be regarded perhaps as ambiguous. But if John came first calling on men to repent, and Christ, while [John] still sat by the river Jordan, having come, put an end to his prophesying and baptizing, and preached also Himself, saying that the kingdom of heaven is at hand, and that He must suffer many things from the Scribes and Pharisees, and be crucified, and on the third day rise again, and would appear again in Jerusalem, and would again eat and drink with His disciples; and foretold that in the interval between His [first and second] advent, as I previously said, priests and false prophets would arise in His name, which things do actually appear; then how can they be ambiguous, when you may be persuaded by the facts? Moreover, He referred to the fact that there would be no longer in your nation any prophet, and to the fact that men recognised how that the New Testament, which God formerly announced [His intention of] promulgating, was then present, i.e., Christ Himself; and in the following terms: ‘The law and the prophets were until John the Baptist; from that time the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. And if you canreceive it, he is Elijah, who was to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.’ (Matt. 11:12-15)

    Comment


    • #3
      Maybe this will help.

      Matthew 11:12
      (NIV) From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it.



      (NLT) And from the time John the Baptist began preaching until now, the Kingdom of Heaven has been forcefully advancing, and violent people are attacking it.



      (NASB) "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.



      (Amplified Bible) And from the days of John the Baptist until the present time, the kingdom of heaven has endured violent assault, and violent men seize it by force

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
        I could be wrong but I don't think this is referring to heaven but to the kingdom here.
        Right!

        Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
        Consider Jesus words,

        Luke 17:20-21 ( KJV ) 20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
        How can a non observable kingdom within us be the same as the one here taken by force?

        Why does it say -until now -until John?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by mikebr View Post
          Matthew 11:12
          (NIV) From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it.



          (NLT) And from the time John the Baptist began preaching until now, the Kingdom of Heaven has been forcefully advancing, and violent people are attacking it.



          (NASB) "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.



          (Amplified Bible) And from the days of John the Baptist until the present time, the kingdom of heaven has endured violent assault, and violent men seize it by force
          Ok.....
          two say one thing
          two say another
          which two is correct?
          the context answers that

          Comment


          • #6
            Could someone explain Matthew 11:12 to me?

            Consider the following...
            Matt 11:12 With regards to the kingdom of heaven (JN Darby translation says, the kingdom of the heavens) from the opening of John the Baptist ministry to his present imprisonment the kingdom of heaven had suffered violence. This means the Pharisees and scribes had vigorously opposed it. Herod the king had done his part to buffet the kingdom by seizing its hearald (John the baptist). Later John was beheaded.
            With regards to the violent that take it by force, the foes of the kingdom did their best to take the kingdom in order to destroy it. That is one intrepretation. Another intrepretation may be that those who were ready for the King advent responded vigorously to the announcement and strained every muscle to enter. This thought is found in Luke 16:16 where we read the words - and every one is pressing into it. Here in Luke 16 the kingdom is pictured as a besieged city, with all classes of men hammering at it from the outside trying to get in. A certain spiritual violence is necessary.
            Whatever intrepretation you take, the thought is that John the baptist preaching touched off a violent reaction, with widespread and deep effects.
            Hope this helps.
            God bless

            Comment


            • #7
              problem-

              kingdom of heaven/until now
              Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
              Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
              -stop-

              kingdom of God/since
              Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John:.....
              -continue-
              .....since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

              Comment


              • #8
                Matthew 11:12 is not easily translated. It is better translated, "from the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent people attack it." The Greek words employed by Jesus normally have both a negative and passive meaning. Jesus is saying that the kingdom of heaven will suffer opposition from sinners even though it is expanding. The NIV's translation, 'forcefully advancing' and 'forceful men' is highly unlikely given the consistently negative connotations of the words found in Matthew's account.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'm personally in favor of the translation describing a forceful advancing of the kingdom itself over the kingdom suffering violence. It seems to make more sense alongside John's and Jesus' original message at the start of their ministry, "Repent, for the kingdom of God is near!" It is coming not on man's terms but on God's, so man better dramatically make a quick turnaround in their own lives even though the "timing" might not be to their liking. George Eldon Ladd in Presence of the Future describes an interpretation where the forceful or violent men are good men who throw away everything to gain entrance into the kingdom thus in their eagerness, it resembles a forceful entry. Its along the lines of the merchant selling all he owns to gain the plot of land or that precious pearl.
                  "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, 'Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?'
                  And I said, 'Here am I. Send me!'"
                  Isaiah 6:8

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    According to Dr. Matthew J. Wilkins, Ph.D., Fuller Theological Seminary [author] and Dr. Wayne Grudem, Ph.D., The University of Cambridge, of Phoenix Seminary [editor]:

                    "That the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence (Gk. βιαζῶ) probably indicates opposition from the religious establishment and the violent take it by force probably refers to the actions of specific evil people like Herod Antipas, who had arrested John."


                    Originally posted by TransformedSon View Post
                    "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force."

                    Is this talked about anywhere else in scripture? I thought heaven was completely separated from evil and things of that sort?
                    "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." -Mahatma Gandhi

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Biastai View Post
                      I'm personally in favor of the translation describing a forceful advancing of the kingdom itself over the kingdom suffering violence. It seems to make more sense alongside John's and Jesus' original message at the start of their ministry, "Repent, for the kingdom of God is near!"
                      That was not the original message. The original message was "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Chimon View Post
                        According to Dr. Matthew J. Wilkins, Ph.D., Fuller Theological Seminary [author] and Dr. Wayne Grudem, Ph.D., The University of Cambridge, of Phoenix Seminary [editor]:

                        "That the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence (Gk. βιαζῶ) probably indicates opposition from the religious establishment and the violent take it by force probably refers to the actions of specific evil people like Herod Antipas, who had arrested John."
                        Religious opposition isn't violence. The king's domain (kingdom), Jesus being king, suffered violence.

                        Gen 49:10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          As I've stated, it's a difficult passage. I've actually heard viable sermons preached on one of the two translational options. Scholars differ greatly on this. The view/translation I espoused above is held by Craig Blomberg and favors the NASB translation over that of the NIV. While I believe that one translation is more viable than the other, I'm not going to completely rule out either of them. There's no need to divide over this. Maybe God, in his providence, intended a two-sided meaning. Both teach us a great deal about the kingdom of God.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Do they both? To learn I am born again and going through my trial of faith for a kingdom that can be taken by force by man from a God I believe to be sovereign? I don't think it's even plausible. Quite comical really. After all, one of the interpretations teach us nothing about the kingdom of heaven and uses both passages to teach about the kingdom of God as if synoptic with the kingdom of heaven both having different aspects of one kingdom.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sirus View Post
                              Do they both? To learn I am born again and going through my trial of faith for a kingdom that can be taken by force by man from a God I believe to be sovereign? I don't think it's even plausible. Quite comical really. After all, one of the interpretations teach us nothing about the kingdom of heaven and uses both passages to teach about the kingdom of God as if synoptic.
                              You misunderstand, brother. One translation warns us that God's kingdom will face opposition and persecution from the world. The other suggests that the expansion of the kingdom of God must be tenaciously sought after. Are these not complimentary concepts that we can learn much from?

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X