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  • OT and NT saints judged differently?

    And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Rom 8:23KJV)

    I have spoken with some people who see no difference between OT and NT saints.

    I believe that NT saints are the first to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit available and only after Jesus sat on the right hand of the Father after He rose from the dead.

    That even though salvation has always been grace through faith the way sin is dealt with has changed through time. That it is dealt with differently for NT saints then it was for OT saints.

    Rather then making a bunch of points I will leave it there and see what kind of response there will be.

    Grace and peace,

    Joe

  • #2
    Your Advocate

    Remember, God counted Abraham's trust in God as righteousness. Abraham was before the law. The law itself was making knowledge of the existence of sin. It amplied sin, but gave Israel a guideline to walk in the way of the Lord.

    Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the law. When all was completed, seated on the right hand of the Father and the helper came to us on the day of Pentecost, God succeeded in writing his statures on the fleshy tables of the heart, where the holy spirit now resides. The old man can sin, but the new man is renewed day after day.

    Those who walk in the spirit are in the spirit. Those who walk by the flesh can not please God.

    Grace does NOT give us a license to sin, rather it recognizes the weakness of the flesh so through the spirit we have an advocate who is Jesus Christ the righteous. Since submitting ourselves to Christ, God does not see us as the filthy rags we once were; but now He sees us through the blood of Jesus Christ which has washed away our sins.

    It would not seem right, that Jesus Christ would take our sins and nailing them to the cross with Him only to have us, who accept this as truth, as a gift of God, recrucify Him daily by not accepting that God has saved us by grace.

    Not one man, not one woman can live their lives and come even remotely close to the righteousness of God. There is no one righteous, not one. It is only by the grace of God through the acceptance of the gift through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ that we are entitled to salvation.

    We simply can not work for it.

    Comment


    • #3
      if there are different standards used by God to judge different aspects of His creation, then it is done by the wisdom of our God.
      and nothing said by any man on these forums will will lead to any enlightening on the wisdom used by God asto His righteous judgments.

      ......so, keep the love of God in your heart and you will please Him without even trying, and you wont taste any of His judgment at all, ever !

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Walstib View Post
        And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Rom 8:23KJV)

        I have spoken with some people who see no difference between OT and NT saints.

        I believe that NT saints are the first to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit available and only after Jesus sat on the right hand of the Father after He rose from the dead.

        That even though salvation has always been grace through faith the way sin is dealt with has changed through time. That it is dealt with differently for NT saints then it was for OT saints.

        Rather then making a bunch of points I will leave it there and see what kind of response there will be.

        Grace and peace,

        Joe
        Greetings Joe,

        Those saints living before Christ, died in faith never having received the promised inheritance; Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. What was the promised inheritance they looked for? Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

        Old Testament saints were saved by grace through faith in the same way that New Testaments saints are. Through faith these OT saints never doubted that Messiah would come. They preached, and looked for the birth and atonement to come through Christ, and we preach Christ crucified, and resurrected and look for His Coming again. None of us, whether saints before Christ’s birth or after can have faith apart from the HS. How could these OT saints die in faith without the indwelling HS? These felt the power and presence of the HS Who dwelt “with” them, while saints after Pentecost know His power and presence living “in” us; Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. The indwelling Spirit (Comforter) Christ promised to send was not poured out until Pentecost. This is why Paul speaks of NT saints as having the firstfruits of the Spirit. It was not that they did not have the Holy Spirit at all before Pentecost, but they did not experience the comfort of His ever presence within.

        Why, since the OT saints died in faith did they not receive the promise of a heavenly dwelling place as believers do now? Scripture tells us; “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” (2Co 5:8), so why does Scripture speak of OT saints dying in faith never having received the promise? Because they lived and died prior to the first advent. How could OT saints be immediately translated to heaven before Christ has gone to prepare a place for them (Jo 14:2)? Ac 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Ac 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

        After Christ was resurrected we read of graves of many of the saints being opened, and them coming out of the graves going into the holy city; Mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, Mt 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Notice that it states this did not happen until after His resurrection (three days later). Is this showing us the Spiritual resurrection of those OT saints who died in faith looking forward to the promise? Since after the cross, Jerusalem ceases to be the holy city, is this holy city where they went and appeared to many spiritually speaking of being spiritually resurrected to heaven, and seen by the heavenly host?

        Of course regarding the redemption of our body that Paul speaks of, this happens at the same time for all who die in faith. Christ tells us that those OT saints who died in faith without having received the promise, will not be made perfect without us. It seems the perfection He speaks of here is Spiritual life, and they could not receive Spiritual life in heaven until Christ prepared the way for all His saints. Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Prior to the cross no saint ascended spiritually into heaven, and since His resurrection all who die in Christ go immediately in the spirit to heaven, and at the end of time all the saints will be bodily resurrected together to receive our new bodies, and we will all dwell with Him forever, once more in complete wholeness, body and spirit.

        The interesting thing about how God has dealt with sin, is that He provided a remedy for sin from the foundation of the world. That is to say God secured salvation for His people before any sin was ever committed. For Christ is; “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Therefore from the beginning God has dealt with sin for both OT and NT saints in exactly the same way.

        RW

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Roger,
          Originally posted by RogerW View Post
          Those saints living before Christ, died in faith never having received the promised inheritance; Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. What was the promised inheritance they looked for? Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
          I agree.
          Originally posted by RogerW View Post
          Old Testament saints were saved by grace through faith in the same way that New Testaments saints are. Through faith these OT saints never doubted that Messiah would come. They preached, and looked for the birth and atonement to come through Christ, and we preach Christ crucified, and resurrected and look for His Coming again. None of us, whether saints before Christ’s birth or after can have faith apart from the HS. How could these OT saints die in faith without the indwelling HS? These felt the power and presence of the HS Who dwelt “with” them, while saints after Pentecost know His power and presence living “in” us; Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. The indwelling Spirit (Comforter) Christ promised to send was not poured out until Pentecost. This is why Paul speaks of NT saints as having the firstfruits of the Spirit. It was not that they did not have the Holy Spirit at all before Pentecost, but they did not experience the comfort of His ever presence within.
          I again agree with almost everything here. Yet I wonder at how many Jews understood the message of the coming Messiah let alone people outside of that community. Much was not revealed in those times.

          But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (1Co 2:7-10 KJV)

          Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. (Eph 3:4-7 KJV)

          Some context of this I would like to discuss. The way this is worded it sounds to me you are saying only people who intimately knew a Messiah was to come could be saved. What about people who never heard this message yet still worshiped one God and sought to please Him. They Knew Him but not His name or the promises to come. Do they go to hell because they did not have access to this knowledge or is the grace of God bigger than what information was given to the Jews and the men discussed in the Book of the Law? Was this knowledge you speak of a requirement for salvation?
          Originally posted by RogerW View Post
          Why, since the OT saints died in faith did they not receive the promise of a heavenly dwelling place as believers do now? Scripture tells us; “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” (2Co 5:8), so why does Scripture speak of OT saints dying in faith never having received the promise? Because they lived and died prior to the first advent. How could OT saints be immediately translated to heaven before Christ has gone to prepare a place for them (Jo 14:2)? Ac 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Ac 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
          Agreed, Abraham’s bosom, paradise, the grave…
          Originally posted by RogerW View Post
          After Christ was resurrected we read of graves of many of the saints being opened, and them coming out of the graves going into the holy city; Mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, Mt 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Notice that it states this did not happen until after His resurrection (three days later). Is this showing us the Spiritual resurrection of those OT saints who died in faith looking forward to the promise? Since after the cross, Jerusalem ceases to be the holy city, is this holy city where they went and appeared to many spiritually speaking of being spiritually resurrected to heaven, and seen by the heavenly host?
          Agreed but this does not speak to who all from the times past was part of the firstfruits. Or who the spirits in prison were, or who all will still line up at the last judgement. Thoughts?
          Originally posted by RogerW View Post
          Of course regarding the redemption of our body that Paul speaks of, this happens at the same time for all who die in faith. Christ tells us that those OT saints who died in faith without having received the promise, will not be made perfect without us. It seems the perfection He speaks of here is Spiritual life, and they could not receive Spiritual life in heaven until Christ prepared the way for all His saints. Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Prior to the cross no saint ascended spiritually into heaven, and since His resurrection all who die in Christ go immediately in the spirit to heaven, and at the end of time all the saints will be bodily resurrected together to receive our new bodies, and we will all dwell with Him forever, once more in complete wholeness, body and spirit.
          Agreed.
          Originally posted by RogerW View Post
          The interesting thing about how God has dealt with sin, is that He provided a remedy for sin from the foundation of the world. That is to say God secured salvation for His people before any sin was ever committed. For Christ is; “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Therefore from the beginning God has dealt with sin for both OT and NT saints in exactly the same way.
          Well here is what the post was more about. Agree that Jesus is was and always will be the Lamb of God. The blood atones for sin will always be Jesus’ blood. This is outside of the context I am aiming for. Two question topics then.

          Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (Rom 5:12-14 KJV)

          If sin was not imputed when there was no law does that not speak to a change in the way God dealt with sin though time?

          Why did the Jews sacrifice animals? Was it just a worthless shadow was there power in following Gods commands at that time in regards to how sin was found in that person and dealt with?

          Grace and peace,

          Joe

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by RogerW View Post
            ...Old Testament saints were saved by grace through faith in the same way that New Testaments saints are...
            Just a thought I'd like to add. Saved is Saved, but OT saints were Saved because their actions were produced by faith and that faith, having been perfected by the actions (James 2:22) was then reckoned as Righteousness by God, thus giving them Justification in God's eyes.

            For Church saints, we have no need to establish any righteousness to be reckoned by God. We have Jesus' Righteousness, the only one, like Paul, that we should desire to be found with when we are finally face-to-face. Many people misunderstand James because he was trying to make the point that while faith in the OT was always accompanied by works (actions), nothing has changed now that we have Jesus' Righteousness as our own. True Faith, perfected faith, regardless of how the Righteousness is reckoned, is ALWAYS accompanied by action...always.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by IBWatching View Post
              Just a thought I'd like to add. Saved is Saved, but OT saints were Saved because their actions were produced by faith and that faith, having been perfected by the actions (James
              Originally posted by IBWatching View Post
              2:22) was then reckoned as Righteousness by God, thus giving them Justification in God's eyes.


              Hi IBW,

              This is exactly the kind of thing I wanted to discuss here. Your example to me speaks towards why animal sacrifices were made under the law and how one was reckoned clean.

              I would be interested in your comments of how the Holy Spirit indwelling relates to this change if you have any.

              Grace and peace,

              Joe

              Comment


              • #8
                OT saints were shadows; NT saints are the substance. Both are saved.
                Phl 4:11 Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'll answer you like this :
                  "The ground at the bottom of the cross is level "
                  The LORD is my Miracle

                  G_d was gracious He has shown favor


                  Hope is a seed
                  God plants in our hearts
                  to remind us
                  there are better things ahead.
                  -Holley Gerth

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Walstib View Post
                    Hi Roger,
                    Yet I wonder at how many Jews understood the message of the coming Messiah let alone people outside of that community. Much was not revealed in those times.

                    But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (1Co 2:7-10 KJV)

                    Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. (Eph 3:4-7 KJV)

                    Some context of this I would like to discuss. The way this is worded it sounds to me you are saying only people who intimately knew a Messiah was to come could be saved. What about people who never heard this message yet still worshiped one God and sought to please Him. They Knew Him but not His name or the promises to come. Do they go to hell because they did not have access to this knowledge or is the grace of God bigger than what information was given to the Jews and the men discussed in the Book of the Law? Was this knowledge you speak of a requirement for salvation?

                    Agreed but this does not speak to who all from the times past was part of the firstfruits. Or who the spirits in prison were, or who all will still line up at the last judgement. Thoughts?

                    Well here is what the post was more about. Agree that Jesus is was and always will be the Lamb of God. The blood atones for sin will always be Jesus’ blood. This is outside of the context I am aiming for. Two question topics then.

                    Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (Rom 5:12-14 KJV)

                    If sin was not imputed when there was no law does that not speak to a change in the way God dealt with sin though time?

                    Why did the Jews sacrifice animals? Was it just a worthless shadow was there power in following Gods commands at that time in regards to how sin was found in that person and dealt with?

                    Grace and peace,

                    Joe
                    Greetings Joe,

                    The Word of God was committed (entrusted) to the Jew.

                    Ro 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
                    Ro 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

                    Jesus, while speaking to the Jews says they search the Scriptures thinking to have eternal life, and the Scriptures testify of Him. Christ is speaking of the Old Testament Scriptures.

                    Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

                    Christ says that all things written of Him must be fulfilled, so it is written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms concerning Him.

                    Lu 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
                    Lu 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
                    Lu 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
                    Lu 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

                    In the book of Isaiah, quoted here: “Lord, who hath believed our report? Hath they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world. Did not Israel know? To Israel He saith, ‘All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.’”

                    Ro 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
                    Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
                    Ro 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
                    Ro 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
                    Ro 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
                    Ro 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

                    It was not that revelation of Christ was not given in the OT times, but that many among them were not given to receive the testimony, because of their continual disobedience they stumbled and fell, and were broken. Isaiah says that the testimony was bound, and sealed except to His disciples. The LORD hid His face from the house of Jacob, and only those the LORD hath given will dwell in mount Zion.

                    Isa 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
                    Isa 8:15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
                    Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
                    Isa 8:17 And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.
                    Isa 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

                    Peter confirms what Isaiah had prophesied, speaking of those who stumble at the Word, being disobedient, whereunto they were appointed.

                    1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

                    The crucified Christ is the wisdom of God, and only those given to understand through faith can recognize that. The gospel is not the vain philosophy of this world, or world leaders (to them it is foolishness, and means nothing); but it is the setting forth of the eternal wisdom, grace and mercy of God, which was given us in Christ before the world began. The redemptive plan was veiled in the past, and manifested through promises, prophecies, and types, now it is fully revealed in Christ. (See Heb)

                    The way of salvation is not knowing of Messiah to come, but believing Messiah Who was to come, would fulfill all of His promises. As I said in the last reply they looked for the birth of Messiah to come and usher in the universal Kingdom of God. Those who were saved from the old, just like we who are saved in the new, rested through faith in His promises, knowing that what He promised would come to pass. That is why those OT saints who have died in faith, never having received the promise, but knowing He would come, looked forward to fulfillment of the promises even in death.
                    All manner of religions claim to know God, but these don’t know Messiah. There is no other name whereby we must be saved. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Him. So can a man who never receives of His saving grace be saved? It is not our knowledge that brings us salvation, it is believing on the One and only Savior, Who Alone is able to give unto us eternal life.

                    Ac 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
                    Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

                    The firstfruits are the OT saints, the remnant saved by grace through faith. NT saints are called a innumerable multitude that no man can number. This remnant firstfruits includes all who were saved prior to Christ, beginning with Adam. The spirits in prison refers to those living in the days of Noah. Spirits in prison is reference to being spiritually bound. Though Noah was a faithful preacher of righteousness, none of those he preached to while preparing the ark were saved, so all of them who died in the flood will stand before the Judgment Throne of God on the last day to receive eternal punishment.

                    If you believe that ‘where there is no law, a man is not accountable’ why does death still reign? Why did people die, who did not commit an act of rebellion like Adam? Adam is a type or figure of Christ:

                    1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
                    1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

                    When Adam sinned transgression entered this world. By representation, sin and it results (spiritual death, physical death, sickness, and enmity against God) entered into all men. When Adam fell we all fell with him, though the similitude of his sin is not imputed to us, his nature to sin certainly is. This is why death reigns, and why all men die.

                    Original sin means that sinfulness marks everyone from birth in the form of a heart inclined toward sin, prior to any actual sins. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners, born in Adam with a nature enslaved to sin.

                    Ps 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
                    Ps 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

                    But remember, God provided a remedy for sin from the foundation of the world; Christ, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Before God had given man His law, by which sin brings guilt unto men, He provided a means of forgiveness. Just as in Adam, sin and death has passed unto all men, so too in Christ justification, and life.

                    When God gave the Jews His law, God said, “Obedience brings blessings, and life, but disobedience brings cursing, and death.” If the sacrificing of animals could have given them remission of sins, then there would have been no need of a Savior. Who is able to perfectly obey the law and thereby receive the eternal blessings, and eternal life found in Christ? And even if a man could keep the law perfectly, the law makes nothing perfect. What those shadows show us is that the law cannot redeem us, and therefore these shadows point us to the true sacrifice, the One sacrifice. By pointing us to the True we see our inability to redeem ourselves through our own good works; obedience to the law, and our absolute need, and utter dependence on Christ.

                    Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
                    Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
                    Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

                    RW

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SIG View Post
                      OT saints were shadows; NT saints are the substance. Both are saved.


                      Hi Sig,

                      Lets please assume everyone here believes both are “saved/will be saved”, what I want to discuss is when were they considered saved or if they, or us, are even yet considered saved. Fully justified may be a better term as salvation can easily be seen as a process that is not over until the final judgment, as glorification is a part of salvation. I am trying to harmonize the things I know here for a clearer picture…

                      I agree how I read your words but I would ask you to please elaborate on the reasoning for posting what you did as I am unsure of your context and don't want to assume it.

                      See.. what I most want to discuss with everyone more has to do with the interaction of the Holy Spirit between the then and the now in believers lives. If the Holy Spirit is a seal unto salvation, and the OT saints were never sealed while still alive though they believed, what would this mean when discussing the judgement of their righteousness. If they were sealed, where is the evidence of this as I have found none.

                      Grace and peace,

                      Joe

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Walstib View Post

                        Hi Sig,

                        Lets please assume everyone here believes both are “saved/will be saved”, what I want to discuss is when were they considered saved or if they, or us, are even yet considered saved. Fully justified may be a better term as salvation can easily be seen as a process that is not over until the final judgment, as glorification is a part of salvation. I am trying to harmonize the things I know here for a clearer picture…

                        I agree how I read your words but I would ask you to please elaborate on the reasoning for posting what you did as I am unsure of your context and don't want to assume it.

                        See.. what I most want to discuss with everyone more has to do with the interaction of the Holy Spirit between the then and the now in believers lives. If the Holy Spirit is a seal unto salvation, and the OT saints were never sealed while still alive though they believed, what would this mean when discussing the judgement of their righteousness. If they were sealed, where is the evidence of this as I have found none.

                        Grace and peace,

                        Joe
                        I believe the Holy Spirit came in power after the cross, because of the results of the cross and what Christ accomplished; and thereafter, empowered believers and taught believers and strengthened believers in a way that had never been possible before. (Because of what they witnessed in its fulness at the cross).

                        It was this empowerment and instruction that allowed the gospel to begin to go forth unto all Gentile nations for the first time, and be heard, and be accepted by billions.


                        So I wanted to say that first, so as to not minimalize what the H.S. did following calvary, and how His effect through people changed drastically.

                        However, the meat of the OP, from what I can see, is are OT and NT saints the same?

                        Similarities.
                        1) Human beings
                        2) Sinners
                        3) Needful of a Redeemer
                        4) Lost on their own merits

                        Differences.
                        1) OT looked forward in faith.
                        2) NT looked either straight at it, or backward in faith.
                        3) OT weren't empowered to take the gospel to the nations, because the power of the cross hadn't occurred yet.

                        I think it is impossible, however, to say that the few faithful people of the OT weren't indwelt by the H.S.

                        Why?

                        Because if they weren't, then they couldn't receive regeneration from the H.S., and all of their deeds would have been evil.

                        They couldn't merit anything good on their own accord, any more than we can today. Their faithfulness came from the H.S. working in them, and directing them, and leading them....no different than us.

                        Were the H.S. not active in Abraham's life as it is in our lives, He would have remained a wicked, evil, god-less sinner living in the pleasures of the worldly Chaldean empire.

                        Yet the H.S. worked in Him and through Abraham to bring him to faith, repentence, and righteousness....something Abraham could have never accomplished on his own, without the H.S's involvement and direction.

                        So, taking this completely away from the 'salvation issue', and just putting it at 'an everyday life issue'; I don't see how in any way, any OT saint could have done anything good, righteous, faithful, or pleasing to God...were it not for the H.S. in them leading, directing, and instructing them in the ways of righteousness.


                        O.T.
                        Psalms 32:8, 147:11 "But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment. Therefore I said, Hearken to me; I also will shew mine opinion. The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy."

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ACCM View Post
                          "The ground at the bottom of the cross is level "
                          Thanks ACCM,

                          That is to me a wise and beautiful statement.

                          It is one of the foundation blocks I have that all people through all time have been, and are, fully equal in essence. No person’s spirit is more righteous then the next based on their race or earthly position. God is not a respecter of persons.

                          Do you believe the OT saints were sealed with the Holy Spirit the same way as NT saints? If so why? If not, what does this difference mean when talking of judgement if any? That may be a better way to state what I am trying to work out and want feedback on.

                          Joe
                          Last edited by Walstib; Aug 16th 2007, 02:11 PM. Reason: extra quote removed

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Walstib View Post
                            Hi Sig,

                            Lets please assume everyone here believes both are “saved/will be saved”, what I want to discuss is when were they considered saved or if they, or us, are even yet considered saved. Fully justified may be a better term as salvation can easily be seen as a process that is not over until the final judgment, as glorification is a part of salvation. I am trying to harmonize the things I know here for a clearer picture…

                            I agree how I read your words but I would ask you to please elaborate on the reasoning for posting what you did as I am unsure of your context and don't want to assume it.

                            See.. what I most want to discuss with everyone more has to do with the interaction of the Holy Spirit between the then and the now in believers lives. If the Holy Spirit is a seal unto salvation, and the OT saints were never sealed while still alive though they believed, what would this mean when discussing the judgement of their righteousness. If they were sealed, where is the evidence of this as I have found none.

                            Grace and peace,

                            Joe
                            Hi Joe,

                            I believe Scripture does show the OT saints are sealed, that they receive Spiritual life after Christ goes to the cross, and is resurrected to heaven. This sealing is found in Rev 7 with the sealing of the 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel. I view this sealing as those who died in faith not yet having received the promise of Spiritual life enabling them to enter into heaven at death finally receiving the promise. They had to wait in faith until after the cross, and until the HS was poured out to dwell within man, thereby making them Spiritually alive. This sealing includes every OT saint from Adam forward, and the genealogical record of Christ confirms this.

                            Re 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
                            Re 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
                            Re 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
                            Re 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

                            Rev 7 shows this prophecy given to Ezekiel being fulfilled. Remember, not long after the sealing, which came at Pentecost, Jerusalem was utterly destroyed.

                            Eze 9:1 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.
                            Eze 9:2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.
                            Eze 9:3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
                            Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
                            Eze 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
                            Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
                            Eze 9:7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
                            Eze 9:8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?
                            Eze 9:9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.
                            Eze 9:10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.
                            Eze 9:11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

                            Blessings,
                            RW

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                              ...I think it is impossible, however, to say that the few faithful people of the OT weren't indwelt by the H.S...
                              There is evidence in the NT to the contrary:

                              John 14:7 "even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

                              The disciples knew the Holy Spirit because He was certainly with them. Jesus said the Indwelling was still future. David also concurred:

                              Psalms 51:1 Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

                              David knew the Spirit was with him. I don't see the word "within" here after the word from. If it was there, it would indicate an Indwelling. Then there is another interesting passage:

                              Luke 2:25 And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.

                              Again, it fits the pattern of the Holy Spirit being with or upon them, but not indwelling them. Yet in the same account of Jesus' Nativity, Luke tells us that both Elizabeth (1:41) and Zacharias (1:67) were filled with the Holy Spirit. There is no evidence here that this "filling" was anymore than a temporary invasion necessary to progress God's Plan or Work, just as it is in Church saints. It also happened to Ezekiel:

                              Ezekiel 2:2 Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me.

                              The only conclusion I can make from Scripture is that it was possible for the Spirit to abide for some time (perhaps even an entire life) with an OT Believer, and even at times enter and fill them to facilitate God's Work. But the concept of an abiding, perpetual Indwelling of the Spirit is lacking Scriptural evidence, as far as the OT is concerned.

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