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  • Please Help Eternal Securists

    Hebrews 6

    4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
    5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
    6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

    Help?

  • #2
    Spiros Zodhiates reasoned that this passage is an example of reductio ad absurdum. That is to say, Paul was making the point that it is impossible to lose salvation, for to lose salvation would be tantamount to crucifying the Son of God all over again, which is absurd.

    http://matthewness.com/about/hebrews...rnal-security/

    Scroll down to the part that deals with the passage in question.

    Comment


    • #3
      ,,, And when these verses are considered in the context of all the rest of scripture that is my take also. I'll use an Old Testament example. Everyone accepts that Abraham has ascended into Heaven, even though he had a bad habit of not fully relying on God. You see, Abraham lied to Pharaoh in Egypt because he feared for his life even though he often walked with God. He also slept with Hagar to produce an heir even though God had promised him an heir through Sarah. God only saved Abraham and Sarah once and it lasted forever.

      Comment


      • #4
        The passage speaks about the foundation. The foundation is God's work and is a sure foundation, that no man can lay.

        When we have received Christ and have been born again, the foundation has been laid. We cannot add to that foundation, and we cannot take away from the foundation (It is finished)

        If one should fall away, he can come back, but he cannot relay the foundation. What we do is build on the sure foundation, but let us build with Gold, Silver and Precious Stone, and not with wood, hay and stubble.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
          Hebrews 6

          4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
          5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
          6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

          Help?
          What others have said is very good. I'd only add that if we were to take the non-eternal security position when reading this passage, we'd have to conclude that once someone is saved, and leaves communion with God, that he/she cannot be saved again. However, most who do not hold to eternal security would object to the idea that falling away means you can't come back. Kinda makes all those re-baptisms a little meaningless, don't you think?
          The grace of God is amazing. He saved a wretch like me.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hebrews 6 is talking about the unpardonable sin. That is rejecting Jesus. If you continue reading the passage the writer gives an illustration of God raining on two fields. One produces fruit, the other produces thorns. Also, at the end of this passage he says, "though i talk this way, i have better things concerning YOU, things that have to do with salvation". The person shown in Hebrews 6 is not one who has experienced salvation

            Notice the non-committing words: enlightened, tasted, partaker, never says believer, truster, haves faith. People get confused with the word partaker. If i invite you to my house for dinner you have become a partaker in my blessings. Many people are partakers of the Spirit. They recieve and witness blessings of the Holy Spirit.

            Also it is impossible to renew them to repentance. SO if this is talking about losing your salvation just because you stopped believing, that would mean that the second that you doubt your faith or turn on God you are damned forever even if you wanted to repent the next second!

            Most people who agree on conditional security think this is a saved person but they will agree that the person can indeed repent but that would go against what the Scripture clearly says. That means everyone who has turned their back on God at anytime can never be forgiven again

            Comment


            • #7
              Please don't think if I don't reply that I started this thread to ignore it.

              I'm just reading through and thinking, keep the answers coming

              Comment


              • #8
                Here is the wording of Heb. 6:4-6 from the literal word for word NASB translation.

                For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
                and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (Heb. 6:4-6 )

                Below are a few comments on the above verses from Reformed Calvinist Charles Spurgeon.

                "a child reading this passage, would say, that the persons intended by it must be Christians. If the Holy Spirit intended to describe Christians, I do not see that he could have used more explicit terms than there are here."

                "How can a man be said to be enlightened, and to taste of the heavenly gift, and to be made partaker of the Holy Ghost, without being a child of God?"

                "none but true believers are here described."

                "First, they are spoken of as having been once enlightened, This refers to the enlightening influence of God's Spirit .... I cannot consider a man truly enlightened unless he is a child of God."

                "the next thing that God grants to us is a taste of the heavenly gift, by which we understand, the heavenly gift of salvation."

                "we cannot think that the Holy Spirit would describe an unregenerate man as having been enlightened, and as having tasted of the heavenly gift, No, my brethren, If I have tasted of the heavenly gift, I am one of his."

                "no man can be a partaker of the Holy Ghost, and yet be unregenerate."

                'further..... they have tasted the good word of God .... I say again, if these people be not believers-who are?"

                "They had received the powers of the world to come.... powers with which the Holy Ghost endows a Christian."

                "These, we say, whatever may be the meaning of the text, must have been, beyond a doubt, none other than true and real Christians"

                Once again all the above quotes on Heb 6:4-6 are from Charles Spurgeon.
                If the Calvinistic Westminister Confession is true (that "God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass"), then God ordained my disbelief of Calvinism.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by alethos View Post
                  Here is the wording of Heb. 6:4-6 from the literal word for word NASB translation.

                  For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
                  and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (Heb. 6:4-6 )

                  Below are a few comments on the above verses from Reformed Calvinist Charles Spurgeon.

                  "a child reading this passage, would say, that the persons intended by it must be Christians. If the Holy Spirit intended to describe Christians, I do not see that he could have used more explicit terms than there are here."

                  "How can a man be said to be enlightened, and to taste of the heavenly gift, and to be made partaker of the Holy Ghost, without being a child of God?"

                  "none but true believers are here described."

                  "First, they are spoken of as having been once enlightened, This refers to the enlightening influence of God's Spirit .... I cannot consider a man truly enlightened unless he is a child of God."

                  "the next thing that God grants to us is a taste of the heavenly gift, by which we understand, the heavenly gift of salvation."

                  "we cannot think that the Holy Spirit would describe an unregenerate man as having been enlightened, and as having tasted of the heavenly gift, No, my brethren, If I have tasted of the heavenly gift, I am one of his."

                  "no man can be a partaker of the Holy Ghost, and yet be unregenerate."

                  'further..... they have tasted the good word of God .... I say again, if these people be not believers-who are?"

                  "They had received the powers of the world to come.... powers with which the Holy Ghost endows a Christian."

                  "These, we say, whatever may be the meaning of the text, must have been, beyond a doubt, none other than true and real Christians"

                  Once again all the above quotes on Heb 6:4-6 are from Charles Spurgeon.
                  i am reformed and actually disagree with Spurgeouns commentary on this section as many reformed theologians do.

                  Spurgeon believed that the passage was hypothetical.

                  he believed that since they were true believers and true believers cant fall away that the event of falling away could actually not happen

                  it is the more common reformed view that this was an unconverted person who did in fact fall away

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by reformedct View Post
                    it is the more common reformed view that this was an unconverted person who did in fact fall away
                    I need to apologize for posting here. I didn't initially see that this thread was for eternal securist's only. Nevertheless.

                    How does one fall from a height he never obtained.

                    No need to answer. I am not an eternal securist so I won't be back to read any answer you might provide since only eternal securists are welcome here.
                    If the Calvinistic Westminister Confession is true (that "God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass"), then God ordained my disbelief of Calvinism.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      It's like this. If you are traveling down the freeway and see the sign up ahead that reads "Jesus next right" and you miss your turn. I don't think Hebrews 6 rules out the possibility that you can double back to find the right exit again.

                      It does rule out the possiblity that once having decided that "Jesus" is not where you want to go, it's impossible to find salvation on the Buddhist or Hindu, or L. Ron Hubbard exit.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hebrews

                        I think in order to understand the above passage, we must understand who Hebrews was written to and for wht purpose. If we take every passage of Scripture and apply it to this dispensation of grace, confusion will result. While ALL Scripture is inspired by God, and much can be learned from ALL Scripture, not all Scripture is intended as instruction for us today.

                        There were three different groups of Jews who were addressed in the book of Hebrews:

                        1) believers - They suffered rejection and persecution by fellow Jews (10:32-34), although none as yet had been martyred (12:4). The letter was written to give them encouragement and confidence in Christ, their Messiah and High-Priest. They were an immature group of believers who were tempted to hold on to the symbolic and spiritually powerless rituals and traditions of Judaism.

                        2) unbelievers who were intellectually convinced of the gospel - They were Jewish unbelievers who were basically convinced of the basic truths ofthe gospel, but who had not placed their faith in Christ as the own Savior and Lord. They were intellecually persuaded but spiritual uncommitted. These unbelievers are addressed in such passages as 2:1-3; 6:4-6; 10:26-29, and 12:15-17.

                        and 3) unbelievers who were not convinced of the gospel's truth but had had some exposure to it. Chapter 9 is largely devoted to them (see especially v 11, 14, 15, 27, 28).

                        The most serious interpretive challenge in found in 6:4-6. The phrase "once enlightened" is often taken to refer to Christians, and the accompanying warning taken to indicate the danger of losing their salvation if they "fall away" and "crucify again for themselves the Son of God." But there is no mention of their being saved and they are not described with any terms that apply only to believers (such as holy, born again, righteous, or saints). This problem arises from inaccurately dientifying the spiritual condition of the ones being addressed. In this case, they were unbelievers who had been exposed to God's redemptive truth, and perhaps had made a profession of faith, but had not exercised genuine saving faith. In 10:26, the reference once again is to apostate Christians, not to genuine believers who are often incorrectly thought to love their salvation because of their sins.

                        From the John MacArthur Study Bible - Interpretive challenges on the book of Hebrews.

                        Thought this might give some additional insight.

                        God Bless.
                        "I will be glad and rejoice in thee: I will sing praise to thy name, O thou most High." Psalm 9:2

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by reformedct View Post
                          Hebrews 6 is talking about the unpardonable sin. That is rejecting Jesus. If you continue reading the passage the writer gives an illustration of God raining on two fields. One produces fruit, the other produces thorns. Also, at the end of this passage he says, "though i talk this way, i have better things concerning YOU, things that have to do with salvation". The person shown in Hebrews 6 is not one who has experienced salvation

                          Notice the non-committing words: enlightened, tasted, partaker, never says believer, truster, haves faith. People get confused with the word partaker. If i invite you to my house for dinner you have become a partaker in my blessings. Many people are partakers of the Spirit. They recieve and witness blessings of the Holy Spirit.

                          Also it is impossible to renew them to repentance. SO if this is talking about losing your salvation just because you stopped believing, that would mean that the second that you doubt your faith or turn on God you are damned forever even if you wanted to repent the next second!

                          Most people who agree on conditional security think this is a saved person but they will agree that the person can indeed repent but that would go against what the Scripture clearly says. That means everyone who has turned their back on God at anytime can never be forgiven again
                          Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

                          Fruit is not salvation, but something that accompanies salvation.

                          Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

                          How can they "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh" if they have not already done so?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by alethos View Post
                            I need to apologize for posting here. I didn't initially see that this thread was for eternal securist's only. Nevertheless.

                            How does one fall from a height he never obtained.

                            No need to answer. I am not an eternal securist so I won't be back to read any answer you might provide since only eternal securists are welcome here.
                            fall away is just another way of saying rejected the faith or left the church thats all. Its not a matter of literally falling from a height lol

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by alethos View Post
                              I need to apologize for posting here. I didn't initially see that this thread was for eternal securist's only. Nevertheless.

                              How does one fall from a height he never obtained.

                              No need to answer. I am not an eternal securist so I won't be back to read any answer you might provide since only eternal securists are welcome here.
                              fall away is just another way of saying rejected the faith and left the church thats all. Its falling away from the covenant community aka renouncing Christ and never coming back to church. Its not a matter of literally falling from a height lol anyways, i have seen this argument before. At the end of the day, everyone leaves still believing what they want to

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