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  • Free will and the 5 senses.b

    I was thinking about this tonight at dinner with my wife and my 3 year granddaughter. She, my granddaughter is very sensitive to smell. She smells everything. She notices smells that us older folks don't notice. I fully understand that many of us like the same things as far as our senses are concerned. What got me to thinking is do we make a conscious decision of what we think is pleasing to our senses and do our senses connect us anyway to God. Does our belief come from what we can sense?

    If our senses some way lead us to belief in God and we don't control our senses do we have control over our belief?

    Think about what Jesus said to Nicodemus in John chapter 3.

  • #2
    Originally posted by mikebr View Post
    I was thinking about this tonight at dinner with my wife and my 3 year granddaughter. She, my granddaughter is very sensitive to smell. She smells everything. She notices smells that us older folks don't notice. I fully understand that many of us like the same things as far as our senses are concerned. What got me to thinking is do we make a conscious decision of what we think is pleasing to our senses and do our senses connect us anyway to God. Does our belief come from what we can sense?

    If our senses some way lead us to belief in God and we don't control our senses do we have control over our belief?

    Think about what Jesus said to Nicodemus in John chapter 3.
    Senses...seeing,hearing,smelling, touch, taste.
    Out of these I would think at least seeing and hearing connect us to God. How? When we read His word, our minds orally hear His Word. (Or when we hear it with our ears out loud). His Word is a passageway from our senses to Him. Working backwards, His Incarnation (the Word made flesh) allows us to picture Him in action healing,forgiving, rebuking, eating, thirsting, etc thus giving us more clarity of who God is and this is done 2000 years later also through His Word which touches our senses of sight and sound.
    Of course some will go further and bring in taste through the Lord's Supper...but we wont go there will we?

    Free will? I'm not sure how that would tie in. Even if we willed to read the bible it doesn't mean God would grant our spiritual eyes to be opened. See Luke 24.
    ♪ Each day may Christ become clearer, His Cross dearer, Our Hope nearer. ♫

    Comment


    • #3
      That is a very interesting point. That would make sense because God uses the visible things in order to transmit His invisible graces, such as water Baptism, the Lord's Supper, Oil for the out-pouring of the Holy Spirit and the laying on of hands, etc.

      Comment


      • #4
        Exodus 4:11

        11 Then the Lord said to him, “Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?


        This is tough. Without hearing how can you hear the gospel?? What if someone is born deaf and blind?

        Also what about the mentally challenged? Can they be saved? If so, how?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by crossnote View Post
          Senses...seeing,hearing,smelling, touch, taste.
          Out of these I would think at least seeing and hearing connect us to God. How? When we read His word, our minds orally hear His Word. (Or when we hear it with our ears out loud). His Word is a passageway from our senses to Him. Working backwards, His Incarnation (the Word made flesh) allows us to picture Him in action healing,forgiving, rebuking, eating, thirsting, etc thus giving us more clarity of who God is and this is done 2000 years later also through His Word which touches our senses of sight and sound.
          Of course some will go further and bring in taste through the Lord's Supper...but we wont go there will we?

          Free will? I'm not sure how that would tie in. Even if we willed to read the bible it doesn't mean God would grant our spiritual eyes to be opened. See Luke 24.

          yes, there is actually a website called skeptics annotated Bible. Its whole purpose is to point out contradictions in the Bible. So simply reading the word doesnt mean you will be saved

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by mikebr View Post
            I was thinking about this tonight at dinner with my wife and my 3 year granddaughter. She, my granddaughter is very sensitive to smell. She smells everything. She notices smells that us older folks don't notice. I fully understand that many of us like the same things as far as our senses are concerned. What got me to thinking is do we make a conscious decision of what we think is pleasing to our senses and do our senses connect us anyway to God. Does our belief come from what we can sense?

            If our senses some way lead us to belief in God and we don't control our senses do we have control over our belief?

            Think about what Jesus said to Nicodemus in John chapter 3.
            I would say that our belief can and will involve feelings, but feelings in themselves can't be the only foundational thing which motivates us in our relationship with God. We have to at times exclude our feelings when making difficult decisions which God wants us to make, despite the fact that our senses tell us to do what's most pleasing to us at the time.

            Comment


            • #7
              Temperance!!!

              Originally posted by mikebr View Post
              I was thinking about this tonight at dinner with my wife and my 3 year granddaughter. She, my granddaughter is very sensitive to smell. She smells everything. She notices smells that us older folks don't notice. I fully understand that many of us like the same things as far as our senses are concerned. What got me to thinking is do we make a conscious decision of what we think is pleasing to our senses and do our senses connect us anyway to God. Does our belief come from what we can sense?

              If our senses some way lead us to belief in God and we don't control our senses do we have control over our belief?

              Think about what Jesus said to Nicodemus in John chapter 3.
              We that believe and are led of the Spirit have as one of the fruit of the Spirit Temperance (self control).

              Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

              2 Pet 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

              I hope that helps,

              God bless you!

              Firstfruits

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by mikebr View Post
                I was thinking about this tonight at dinner with my wife and my 3 year granddaughter. She, my granddaughter is very sensitive to smell. She smells everything. She notices smells that us older folks don't notice. I fully understand that many of us like the same things as far as our senses are concerned. What got me to thinking is do we make a conscious decision of what we think is pleasing to our senses and do our senses connect us anyway to God. Does our belief come from what we can sense?

                If our senses some way lead us to belief in God and we don't control our senses do we have control over our belief?

                Think about what Jesus said to Nicodemus in John chapter 3.
                Seeing that I have some very unpopular stances, I was refraining from answering this to keep from having you suffer guilt by association.

                You are absolutely correct in what you say. We have no control over our senses as to whether you can smell something I can't, or taste something I can't.

                So, God, at His discretion, decided who should have ears to hear or eyes to see.

                So, not only do we not have control over believing in Christ, we have no control over our doctrines.

                One will read a verse with the eyes given them by God and see something completely different than another who reads the same verse.

                As for what Jesus said to Nicodemus...

                No one can see the Kingdom of God unless He is born again.
                Flesh gives birth to flesh (at what point did you decide to be born?)
                Spirit gives birth to Spirit (at what point did you decide to be born?)
                God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (Even Christ, God gave and is a gift to the world.)
                For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. (Now, for those who define world as all, then all are saved through Him, or God failed.)
                Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son
                This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. (Think this one through, Christ came here, but men loved darkness because their deeds are evil)
                Everyone who does evil (men) hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
                But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God (which are those who are born again, not of man's decision or choice, but of God)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
                  Seeing that I have some very unpopular stances, I was refraining from answering this to keep from having you suffer guilt by association.

                  You are absolutely correct in what you say. We have no control over our senses as to whether you can smell something I can't, or taste something I can't.

                  So, God, at His discretion, decided who should have ears to hear or eyes to see.

                  So, not only do we not have control over believing in Christ, we have no control over our doctrines.

                  One will read a verse with the eyes given them by God and see something completely different than another who reads the same verse.

                  As for what Jesus said to Nicodemus...

                  No one can see the Kingdom of God unless He is born again.
                  Flesh gives birth to flesh (at what point did you decide to be born?)
                  Spirit gives birth to Spirit (at what point did you decide to be born?)
                  God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (Even Christ, God gave and is a gift to the world.)
                  For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. (Now, for those who define world as all, then all are saved through Him, or God failed.)
                  Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son
                  This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. (Think this one through, Christ came here, but men loved darkness because their deeds are evil)
                  Everyone who does evil (men) hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
                  But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God (which are those who are born again, not of man's decision or choice, but of God)
                  Are you saying that even though it is written that we have temperance/self control, that we do not?

                  Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

                  2 Pet 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

                  Firstfruits

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Are you saying that even though it is written that we have temperance/self control, that we do not?

                    Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

                    2 Pet 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

                    Firstfruits
                    Oh, we have self-control. And that self-control is a fruit of the Spirit, not an act.

                    The self-control we exhibit is through love, for one who is born again does all things in love, whether they realize it or not. This is why Paul says that everything we do is justified, though not everything we do is profitable. Paul states that those who are born again do not do what they want, but they are no longer under law.

                    What does one who is led by the Spirit desire to do? Acts of kindness or acts of malice?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
                      Oh, we have self-control. And that self-control is a fruit of the Spirit, not an act.

                      The self-control we exhibit is through love, for one who is born again does all things in love, whether they realize it or not. This is why Paul says that everything we do is justified, though not everything we do is profitable. Paul states that those who are born again do not do what they want, but they are no longer under law.

                      What does one who is led by the Spirit desire to do? Acts of kindness or acts of malice?
                      Isn't self control either doing or not doing something by choice?

                      Firstfruits

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
                        Isn't self control either doing or not doing something by choice?

                        Firstfruits
                        Answr my question and you will find the answer to your own.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
                          Answr my question and you will find the answer to your own.
                          When we are in the Spirit, we choose not to do the works of the flesh. As it says when we follow the Spirit we shall not fulfil the works of the flesh.

                          It is by Choice.

                          I hope that answers your question.

                          Firstfruits

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
                            When we are in the Spirit, we choose not to do the works of the flesh. As it says when we follow the Spirit we shall not fulfil the works of the flesh.

                            It is by Choice.

                            I hope that answers your question.

                            Firstfruits
                            Not quite what Paul said.

                            Paul said that those who are born again do not do what they want, but they are no longer under law.

                            Do the born again want to do acts of kindness or acts of malice?

                            The righteous requirements of the law are fully met in those who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

                            And how do you do that? Love one another, Love the Lord your God.

                            With those two righteous requirements fulfilling the law, you cannot fail, no matter what you do.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
                              Not quite what Paul said.

                              Paul said that those who are born again do not do what they want, but they are no longer under law.

                              Do the born again want to do acts of kindness or acts of malice?

                              The righteous requirements of the law are fully met in those who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

                              And how do you do that? Love one another, Love the Lord your God.

                              With those two righteous requirements fulfilling the law, you cannot fail, no matter what you do.
                              To love one another and to love God is an act. Although those two requirements fulfil the law you must make the choice to either love or not, to love God or one another.

                              We know how we should live but do we all do the righteous thing?

                              Firstfruits

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