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  • Those who deny imputed sin

    How do you interpret

    Romans 5:19?

    19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

    If we are made righteous on Christs account, why is it so hard to believe we are made unrighteous on Adams account?

    the Greek word for "made" there means "caused to be". Not only did death spread, but we were made sinners. I would like to see how you deny imputed sin?

  • #2
    Originally posted by reformedct View Post
    How do you interpret

    Romans 5:19?

    19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

    If we are made righteous on Christs account, why is it so hard to believe we are made unrighteous on Adams account?

    the Greek word for "made" there means "caused to be". Not only did death spread, but we were made sinners. I would like to see how you deny imputed sin?
    Who is it exactly that denies that we are all sinners?
    -----------------
    Scott

    Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly.
    Leave the rest to the Lord.

    Comment


    • #3
      Though it was because of the fall that we have a sin nature, I don't think that it was Adam that imputed sin into our nature as a contrast to the way that Christ imputed righteousness into those that believed in Him. Adams motives were selfish, not unlike our own. I'm sure that in his actions he did not fore see the damage he was doing to his posterity. Christ's imputation of righteousness on the other hand, was totally selfless and intentional.
      -----------------
      Scott

      Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly.
      Leave the rest to the Lord.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by ScottJohnson View Post
        Though it was because of the fall that we have a sin nature, I don't think that it was Adam that imputed sin into our nature as a contrast to the way that Christ imputed righteousness into those that believed in Him. Adams motives were selfish, not unlike our own. I'm sure that in his actions he did not fore see the damage he was doing to his posterity. Christ's imputation of righteousness on the other hand, was totally selfless and intentional.
        i agree with the selfish aspect of what your saying here. What i was getting at is that some people do not believe we are born sinners but that we only become sinners once we sin. I was getting at the effect of sin and judgement of God. If we were made sinners by Adam then how can we be born sinless? that would mean that we were not made sinners. Thats what i was trying to get at

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        • #5
          Originally posted by reformedct View Post
          How do you interpret

          Romans 5:19?

          19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

          If we are made righteous on Christs account, why is it so hard to believe we are made unrighteous on Adams account?

          the Greek word for "made" there means "caused to be". Not only did death spread, but we were made sinners. I would like to see how you deny imputed sin?
          Made does not mean caused to be. Made means designated/ordained’ or appointed to a position. It does not mean created with a thing or disease called sin, to be inherently born with and guilty of another’s sin. Still, the English/modern definition of the word ‘made’ is how most read and understand that verse. Reading the original language and intent of the original author with other scripture through the holistic method of interpretation is very enlightening! It says Adam’s sin brought death -separated us from the tree of life and changed mans relationship with God, appointing us to a position, causing all men to physically die and sin their own sin (Rom 5:12, Eze 18).
          Here is how ‘made’ in Rom 5:19 is used in the Greek in Scripture. The nature of the person made is not changed as a result of being made.

          Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

          Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

          Luk 12:14 And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?

          Act 7:10 And delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favor and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house.

          Act 7:27 But he that did his neighbor wrong thrust him away, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge over us?

          Act 7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.

          Moreover (v20) I would point out ‘much more’ is found five times from v9 to v20, and you should go read about how ‘much more’ the spiritual man-life giving spirit-Christ image affected man over how the natural-earthy-soul man Adam image affected man! Jesus didn’t come just to restore what Adam lost, but to obtain a far greater inheritance through righteousness than Adam ever had.

          I would love to see just one verse about imputed sin from one man to another. Just one.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by reformedct View Post
            How do you interpret

            Romans 5:19?

            19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

            If we are made righteous on Christs account, why is it so hard to believe we are made unrighteous on Adams account?

            the Greek word for "made" there means "caused to be". Not only did death spread, but we were made sinners. I would like to see how you deny imputed sin?
            The Greek word there is καθίστημι - meaning "to place, put, set, appoint, declare, make." I don't know about the idea of "cause to be." The idea is that because of one man's sin we were all placed in the category of sinners and the same is true as a result of Christ's obedience. We were changed as a result of Adam and Eve. We are now "sinners." Meaning that we have a very strong tendency to sin.

            Romans 5:12 says

            Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, in this way death spread to all men, because all sinned.

            Ultimately the reason we are all condemned is because we all sin. True, we have a sin nature as a result of Adam's sin. I am not disputing your contention that sin is "imputed" to us, but what does it mean to say sin is "imputed?" Charles Ryrie refers to "inherited sin," but that does not mean that Adam's sin is our sin. I do not sin because Adam's sin was considered to be my sin and added to my ledger... I sin because it's my nature to sin. I sin, and I am judged for my own sin.

            True, we are "born sinners," meaning we do not need to be taught to lie or be selfish - comes naturally. But we are judged for our own sin, not Adam's sin.

            I guess the question here is if we could possibly NOT sin, would we be condemned anyway, due to imputed sin? Theologians differ here... I say that we would not be condemned if we did not sin. (Romans 5:12) Of course, it is academic... since we do all sin.

            BD
            3 John 4 - "No greater joy can I have than this, to hear that my [spiritual] children walk in the truth.

            BadDog!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by BadDog View Post
              I sin because it's my nature to sin.
              Right. But that nature came from Adam. That's the point I think. We sin, because sin is in us. Later, when we are saved, we do righteous works because righteousness is now in us.

              If we weren't condemned because of sin in Adam, then we couldn't be saved because of righteousness in Christ.
              Matt 9:13
              13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
              NASU

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              • #8
                To take it a step further, Jesus said those that don't believe are condemned already. John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Where else would that condemnation have come from? It came from the iniquity inherent to everyone that comes from the womb... Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

                1st John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                  Right. But that nature came from Adam. That's the point I think. We sin, because sin is in us. Later, when we are saved, we do righteous works because righteousness is now in us.

                  If we weren't condemned because of sin in Adam, then we couldn't be saved because of righteousness in Christ.
                  Yes, our tendency to sin is a result of Adam. We "inherited" this tendency from Adam.

                  We sin because our nature is flawed. I'm not sure what you mean by "sin is in us." Guess I'm not sure if I agree or not.

                  BTW, this is a good thread, because this is something that people don't talk about anymore.

                  BD
                  3 John 4 - "No greater joy can I have than this, to hear that my [spiritual] children walk in the truth.

                  BadDog!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Romans 5:19
                    "For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous."

                    To claim that this passage is a theological statement affirming that everyone is a condemened sinner due to Adam, the claim would also have to be made that everyone will be made righteous because of Christ.

                    Each clause in the passage contains the same subject: "the many".
                    You were made to think. It will do you good to think; to develop your powers by study. God designed that religion should require thought, intense thought, and should thoroughly develop our powers of thought.

                    Charles G Finney



                    http://holyrokker.blogspot.com

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                    • #11
                      By the way - I don't "deny imputed sin"; I simply affirm that the doctrine isn't Biblical.
                      You were made to think. It will do you good to think; to develop your powers by study. God designed that religion should require thought, intense thought, and should thoroughly develop our powers of thought.

                      Charles G Finney



                      http://holyrokker.blogspot.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by BadDog View Post
                        True, we have a sin nature as a result of Adam's sin. I am not disputing your contention that sin is "imputed" to us, but what does it mean to say sin is "imputed?" Charles Ryrie refers to "inherited sin," but that does not mean that Adam's sin is our sin. I do not sin because Adam's sin was considered to be my sin and added to my ledger... I sin because it's my nature to sin. I sin, and I am judged for my own sin.

                        True, we are "born sinners," meaning we do not need to be taught to lie or be selfish - comes naturally. But we are judged for our own sin, not Adam's sin.

                        I guess the question here is if we could possibly NOT sin, would we be condemned anyway, due to imputed sin? Theologians differ here... I say that we would not be condemned if we did not sin. (Romans 5:12) Of course, it is academic... since we do all sin.

                        BD
                        How did what Adam did ensure you would have a sin nature? Why does sin come naturally? Is it because of something you have, or is it because something is missing? You don't seem to be of the mindset that an infant is deserving of damnation. So, why does the infant grow into sin and follow the course and god of this world and follow the lusts of the flesh to ultimately taint every part of their being with sin so they do have nature of sin and end up targets of Gods wrath? Adam had flesh and lusts just as we do. But what did both the first and last Adam have that we are not born with? That's right. An unveiled relationship with God. First man failed, the second man didn't. Pretty simple, eh?

                        There was a change in relationship not a change in nature. There is no scriptural support for a change in nature. If there was a change in nature it would not be possible to not sin and all would be condemned even before birth. Since you don't see that as a possibility how is it you have a sin nature?

                        It doesn't make any sense to say like Charles Ryrie 'inherited' but not really inherited.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by The Parson View Post
                          To take it a step further, Jesus said those that don't believe are condemned already. John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Where else would that condemnation have come from? It came from the iniquity inherent to everyone that comes from the womb... Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
                          ummm ......their own sin?

                          Oh and David being brought forth in iniquity and his mother being yet in her sin has little to do with his nature and a lot to do with his environment.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sirus View Post
                            ummm ......their own sin?

                            Oh and David being brought forth in iniquity and his mother being yet in her sin has little to do with his nature and a lot to do with his environment.
                            Sirus, he says he was shapen in iniquity, not brought forth in iniquity.

                            1st John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

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                            • #15
                              So do you guys think it would be more accurate to say we have a fallen nature that causes us to sin rather than a sin nature? imo i think fallen nature and sinful nature are kind of synonomous. Would it be possible for Adam and Eve to give birth to a sinless baby after the fall?

                              I hate to sound silly but isnt the biggest sin not believing in God and His word, namely His Son? Are babies born believing in Jesus? no right? The Bible says he who does not believe is condemned already, so arent we condemned from birth either way?

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