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  • The thief on the cross

    I see alot of threads opening about faith/works. I would like to open this case up for a minute.

    How many good works did the thief on the cross have, besides faith? 0

    Did the thief feed the hungry, visit the poor? No.

    Did the thief go to heaven? Yes.

    Are good works REQUIRED to go to heaven, in the sense in that unless you have a list of things you have done you cannot be saved?

    if they are required, how the heck is the thief in Paradise? Is there a double standard for salvation?

    lets discuss!

  • #2
    Not sure how else to answer this one but by scripture...

    Matthew 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. 20:2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 20:3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 20:4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. 20:5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. 20:6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? 20:7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive. 20:8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. 20:9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. 20:10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. 20:11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, 20:12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. 20:13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? 20:14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

    1st John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by reformedct View Post
      I see alot of threads opening about faith/works. I would like to open this case up for a minute.

      How many good works did the thief on the cross have, besides faith? 0

      Did the thief feed the hungry, visit the poor? No.

      Did the thief go to heaven? Yes.

      Are good works REQUIRED to go to heaven, in the sense in that unless you have a list of things you have done you cannot be saved?

      if they are required, how the heck is the thief in Paradise? Is there a double standard for salvation?

      lets discuss!
      First of all how come you said "besides faith"? Is that work allowed?

      Second, the thief was saved under the old covenant, not the new.

      Third, God only requires of us, what we can do. The thief had no opportunity to do any works, we, however, do.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
        First of all how come you said "besides faith"? Is that work allowed?

        Second, the thief was saved under the old covenant, not the new.

        Third, God only requires of us, what we can do. The thief had no opportunity to do any works, we, however, do.
        God only requires what we can do? where is that verse?

        Faith is not a work. It is a gift from God. The thief had no works of righteousness. Yet he went to heaven. Therefore, works are not required for Paradise

        Even if faith was a work, we see that faith is the only necessary work for salvation, otherwise the thief would not be saved. Also, all OT saints were saved by faith. Old or New Covenant, without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins, and the blood of bulls and goats only served as a reminder of sin.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by The Parson View Post
          Not sure how else to answer this one but by scripture...

          Matthew 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. 20:2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 20:3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 20:4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. 20:5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. 20:6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? 20:7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive. 20:8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. 20:9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. 20:10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. 20:11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, 20:12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. 20:13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? 20:14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
          this is a good passage. However the people in this passage labored. Some longer than others, but they all did something. The thief did nothing but believe. Are there two different ways to be saved?

          Comment


          • #6
            Still brings it close enough for horse shoes my friend. There are a few I've had the honor of leading to the Lord who didn't live long thereafter. Lets suppose there is one led to the Lord on their death bed as a hypothetical example. Does their belief in the Lords Saving Grace at the time of death nullify their salvation?

            I don't think so... Plainly said: Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

            1st John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by The Parson View Post
              Still brings it close enough for horse shoes my friend. There are a few I've had the honor of leading to the Lord who didn't live long thereafter. Lets suppose there is one led to the Lord on their death bed as a hypothetical example. Does their belief in the Lords Saving Grace at the time of death nullify their salvation?

              I don't think so... Plainly said: Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
              So, you all are agreeing that the path of salvation is different for every single human being?

              So in order to be saved, we must call on the name of the Lord AND obey a customized list of things depending on how long we will live??

              Is it safe to have a theology that is "close"? Especially when it comes to heaven/hell?

              Yes, the parable is "close". Close but no cigar. The people in the parable worked. All of them did something. The thief did nothing. Close yes, but not the same.

              If what you guys are saying is true, we are not saved by grace thru faith. We are saved by grace thru faith AND by the way Gods got a list of things for you to do while your alive and if you dont check off all the things on the list you will be in trouble. And so what if the thief had no works just ignore that part of the Bible and focus on all the other verses but not those ones lol

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by reformedct View Post
                So, you all are agreeing that the path of salvation is different for every single human being?

                So in order to be saved, we must call on the name of the Lord AND obey a customized list of things depending on how long we will live??

                Is it safe to have a theology that is "close"? Especially when it comes to heaven/hell?

                Yes, the parable is "close". Close but no cigar. The people in the parable worked. All of them did something. The thief did nothing. Close yes, but not the same.

                If what you guys are saying is true, we are not saved by grace thru faith. We are saved by grace thru faith AND by the way Gods got a list of things for you to do while your alive and if you dont check off all the things on the list you will be in trouble. And so what if the thief had no works just ignore that part of the Bible and focus on all the other verses but not those ones lol
                Not kewl to put words in other peoples mouths my friend and I'm asking nicely that you don't repeat that. How in the Sam Hill do you get I said that hypothetical person or any other soul didn't have to have faith? By grace we are saved through faith and also faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the Word of God sorta thing.

                1st John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by The Parson View Post
                  Not kewl to put words in other peoples mouths my friend and I'm asking nicely that you don't repeat that. How in the Sam Hill do you get I said that hypothetical person or any other soul didn't have to have faith? By grace we are saved through faith and also faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the Word of God sorta thing.
                  i apologize for the sarcasm. I did not mean to say that you were saying that someone didnt need faith to be saved i apoplogize.

                  I am saying that we are saved by grace thru faith. Period. Is faith without works dead? yes. Does that mean those works save us? no, because the thief was saved with no works.


                  If we MUST do works or else our salvation is not complete, the thief would be in hell right?

                  As i said i see the parable you used, but unfortunately there was no one in the parable that did no work to compare to the thief.

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                  • #10
                    You keep saying the thief did no works-but how do you know? Sure he was a thief, but does that mean it completely rules out possibility of him doing some works before?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      My friend, the very act of acceptance is a work in itself.

                      1st John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Reformed---God only requires what we can do? where is that verse?

                        Micah 6:8 ( KJV ) 8He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

                        Reformed---Faith is not a work. It is a gift from God. The thief had no works of righteousness. Yet he went to heaven. Therefore, works are not required for Paradise

                        John 6:28-29 ( KJV ) 28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

                        Reformed---Even if faith was a work, we see that faith is the only necessary work for salvation, otherwise the thief would not be saved. Also, all OT saints were saved by faith. Old or New Covenant, without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins, and the blood of bulls and goats only served as a reminder of sin.
                        But you said not of works.

                        The Bible also says these are necessary,


                        Romans 10:9 ( KJV ) 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


                        Acts 2:38 ( KJV ) 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


                        Mark 13:13 ( KJV ) 13And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by reformedct View Post
                          i apologize for the sarcasm. I did not mean to say that you were saying that someone didnt need faith to be saved i apoplogize.

                          I am saying that we are saved by grace thru faith. Period. Is faith without works dead? yes. Does that mean those works save us? no, because the thief was saved with no works.


                          If we MUST do works or else our salvation is not complete, the thief would be in hell right?

                          As i said i see the parable you used, but unfortunately there was no one in the parable that did no work to compare to the thief.
                          What did the thief do?

                          1. He confessed Jesus as Lord.
                          2. He called on the name of the Lord.
                          3. He repented of his sin.
                          4. He believed.

                          That about covers the bases doesn't it

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Romber View Post
                            You keep saying the thief did no works-but how do you know? Sure he was a thief, but does that mean it completely rules out possibility of him doing some works before?
                            do you mean before he believed?

                            so are you saying that his works before he believed are somehow counted as righteousness? (all our righteousness is as filthy rags) Anything apart from faith is sin. Im sure the thief probably did something good, but whatever it was, apart from faith it was sin, and obviously he wouldnt be on the cross if he was a righteous man. the bible clearly calls them criminals. Maybe he did do some good works before but the Bible doesnt say. So if we assume he did, we assume something that is not written anywhehere



                            If you are refferring to after he believed (while he was on the cross),

                            first off, the bible doesnt say he did anything good. So to assume that he did good is to assume something that is not written, but simply what we think.

                            secondly, even if he did do something good on the cross, what could he have done? He certainly did not feed the poor, or visit anyone in jail.

                            What i am trying to point out is that its not the works that save us, but our faith. Our faith will produce works in us but those works are not what saves us

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
                              What did the thief do?

                              1. He confessed Jesus as Lord.
                              2. He called on the name of the Lord.
                              3. He repented of his sin.
                              4. He believed.

                              That about covers the bases doesn't it
                              yes. and i am saying that is all that is necessary to be saved. You got it!

                              Comment

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