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  • If those in Hebrews 6 are born again

    4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned. 9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation. 10 For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do. 11 And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.









    If those in Hebrews 6 are born again, then following the logic of the passage, we must conclude that those who fall away cannot repent.



    Most people who believe we can fall away will agree that if that backslider/prodigal will repent, he will be restored. But here it clearly says it is impossible to renew them to repentance.



    If that is true, then it is possible that there are ex-born again belivers walking around on this Earth who want to go to heaven and repent but God wont let them? While pedophiles, murderers and thieves still have the door open to them?



    Just for the record, it is my position that Hebrews 6 does not describe a truly born again believer, however if you agree that it is indeed a true believer, do you also agree that a true believer cannot repent from a fallen state if they wanted? For example, if i renounce my faith today and do some sin, and fall away, and then tommorow i wake up like the prodigal and say: "i am wasting my life. I have forsaken Jesus and have fallen away like a fool. Now i need to repent", are you saying that God will say: "sorry son, doors closed your oppurtunity is lost go to hell? lol


    Again this is not an argument on whether they are true believers, i am assuming as a given that they are for the sake of the argument. The point of this thread is to discuss the impossibility of repentance for those who have fallen

  • #2
    Originally posted by reformedct View Post
    4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned. 9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation. 10 For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do. 11 And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.









    If those in Hebrews 6 are born again, then following the logic of the passage, we must conclude that those who fall away cannot repent.



    Most people who believe we can fall away will agree that if that backslider/prodigal will repent, he will be restored. But here it clearly says it is impossible to renew them to repentance.



    If that is true, then it is possible that there are ex-born again belivers walking around on this Earth who want to go to heaven and repent but God wont let them? While pedophiles, murderers and thieves still have the door open to them?



    Just for the record, it is my position that Hebrews 6 does not describe a truly born again believer, however if you agree that it is indeed a true believer, do you also agree that a true believer cannot repent from a fallen state if they wanted? For example, if i renounce my faith today and do some sin, and fall away, and then tommorow i wake up like the prodigal and say: "i am wasting my life. I have forsaken Jesus and have fallen away like a fool. Now i need to repent", are you saying that God will say: "sorry son, doors closed your oppurtunity is lost go to hell? lol


    Again this is not an argument on whether they are true believers, i am assuming as a given that they are for the sake of the argument. The point of this thread is to discuss the impossibility of repentance for those who have fallen
    The prodigal didn't say that though so what do you think is the difference between the prodigal and what this passage is saying?


    Visit our new website
    ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

    A.W. Tozer said,
    "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

    GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

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    • #3
      Originally posted by ProjectPeter View Post
      The prodigal didn't say that though so what do you think is the difference between the prodigal and what this passage is saying?
      Greetings ProjectPeter

      i am just trying to follow through with this if those in Hebrews 6 are truly born again. When they fall away, it is impossible to renew them to repentance. I am trying to see if those who agree this is a true beliver in Hebrews 6 also agree that those who have fallen cannot repent

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by reformedct View Post
        Greetings ProjectPeter

        i am just trying to follow through with this if those in Hebrews 6 are truly born again. When they fall away, it is impossible to renew them to repentance. I am trying to see if those who agree this is a true beliver in Hebrews 6 also agree that those who have fallen cannot repent
        Yes, I believe those who truly fall away and are apostate cannot be renewed to repentance. However, I do not believe someone "falling away" is just someone falling into sin for a time. A person who has fallen into sin can be brought to repentance. There are plenty of Scriptures about correcting brothers/sisters who are sinning. However, someone who has fallen away from the faith or is apostate is one who is rejecting or betraying Jesus all together. This type is a son of perdition like Judas.
        "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

        -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by reformedct View Post
          Greetings ProjectPeter

          i am just trying to follow through with this if those in Hebrews 6 are truly born again. When they fall away, it is impossible to renew them to repentance. I am trying to see if those who agree this is a true beliver in Hebrews 6 also agree that those who have fallen cannot repent
          A) I believe this is a true believer.

          B) I believe this is somebody who has more than the basic true believer--that they have tasted the promise to come, i.e., those like Thomas who have seen and believed, not those of us who have not seen and who have believed.
          One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father over us all.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
            Yes, I believe those who truly fall away and are apostate cannot be renewed to repentance. However, I do not believe someone "falling away" is just someone falling into sin for a time. A person who has fallen into sin can be brought to repentance. There are plenty of Scriptures about correcting brothers/sisters who are sinning. However, someone who has fallen away from the faith or is apostate is one who is rejecting or betraying Jesus all together. This type is a son of perdition like Judas.
            James 5
            19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,

            20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

            One of those scriptures you mention ... just for reference!
            One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father over us all.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Steve M View Post
              A) I believe this is a true believer.

              B) I believe this is somebody who has more than the basic true believer--that they have tasted the promise to come, i.e., those like Thomas who have seen and believed, not those of us who have not seen and who have believed.
              so you believe that if they become apostate, and then later wish to repent, it will be impossible to do so?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Steve M View Post
                James 5
                19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,

                20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

                One of those scriptures you mention ... just for reference!
                Thank you . . .
                "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

                -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
                  Yes, I believe those who truly fall away and are apostate cannot be renewed to repentance. However, I do not believe someone "falling away" is just someone falling into sin for a time. A person who has fallen into sin can be brought to repentance. There are plenty of Scriptures about correcting brothers/sisters who are sinning. However, someone who has fallen away from the faith or is apostate is one who is rejecting or betraying Jesus all together. This type is a son of perdition like Judas.

                  yes i am refferring to an apostate. If someone is apostate but then later is brought to see their error by good Christian friends, even if they want to repent it will be impossible?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Steve M View Post
                    A) I believe this is a true believer.

                    B) I believe this is somebody who has more than the basic true believer--that they have tasted the promise to come, i.e., those like Thomas who have seen and believed, not those of us who have not seen and who have believed.
                    Right... go back to chapter five and see why the warning was given to these specific people.

                    Hebrews 5:11 *¶Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
                    12 *For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
                    13 *For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is a babe.
                    14 *But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

                    Hebrews 6:1 *Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
                    2 *of instruction about washings, and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
                    3 *And this we shall do, if God permits.


                    Press on to maturity... these guys were going backwards. The writer speaks again of it in the 10th chapter.

                    Hebrews 10:26 *¶For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
                    27 *but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
                    28 *Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
                    29 *How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
                    30 *For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
                    31 *It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
                    32 *¶But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings,
                    33 *partly, by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated.
                    34 *For you showed sympathy to the prisoners, and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and an abiding one.
                    35 *Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
                    36 *For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
                    37 *FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
                    38 *BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
                    39 *But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.


                    Visit our new website
                    ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

                    A.W. Tozer said,
                    "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

                    GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by reformedct View Post
                      so you believe that if they become apostate, and then later wish to repent, it will be impossible to do so?
                      I believe that those who saw the Son of God and His miracles and believed, and then turned on Him, were in the position of having personally rejected God. I don't believe any believers today fall into that box.

                      But, yes, I believe that they had no second chance.
                      One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father over us all.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ProjectPeter View Post
                        Right... go back to chapter five and see why the warning was given to these specific people.

                        Hebrews 5:11 *¶Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
                        12 *For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
                        13 *For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is a babe.
                        14 *But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

                        Hebrews 6:1 *Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
                        2 *of instruction about washings, and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
                        3 *And this we shall do, if God permits.


                        Press on to maturity... these guys were going backwards. The writer speaks again of it in the 10th chapter.

                        Hebrews 10:26 *¶For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
                        27 *but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
                        28 *Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
                        29 *How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
                        30 *For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
                        31 *It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
                        32 *¶But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings,
                        33 *partly, by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated.
                        34 *For you showed sympathy to the prisoners, and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and an abiding one.
                        35 *Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
                        36 *For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
                        37 *FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
                        38 *BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
                        39 *But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
                        The all-important context! Thanks, PP!
                        One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father over us all.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by reformedct View Post
                          yes i am refferring to an apostate. If someone is apostate but then later is brought to see their error by good Christian friends, even if they want to repent it will be impossible?
                          We have biblical precedence for that yes.

                          1 Samuel 3:11 *And the LORD said to Samuel, "Behold, I am about to do a thing in Israel at which both ears of everyone who hears it will tingle.
                          12 *"In that day I will carry out against Eli all that I have spoken concerning his house, from beginning to end.
                          13 *"For I have told him that I am about to judge his house forever for the iniquity which he knew, because his sons brought a curse on themselves and he did not rebuke them.
                          14 *"And therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever."


                          Even in the book of Hebrews it gives us an example.

                          Hebrews 12:15 *See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
                          16 *that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.
                          17 *For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.


                          Visit our new website
                          ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

                          A.W. Tozer said,
                          "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

                          GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Steve M View Post
                            I believe that those who saw the Son of God and His miracles and believed, and then turned on Him, were in the position of having personally rejected God. I don't believe any believers today fall into that box.

                            But, yes, I believe that they had no second chance.
                            i see i see.... so you believe that no believer can become apostate today?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by reformedct View Post
                              i see i see.... so you believe that no believer can become apostate today?
                              I think a believer can become apostate today; however, we are those who Jesus said 'have not seen, and yet believe.' (have not tasted the heavenly gift, and shared in the Holy Spirit, and tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come)

                              So I believe that there is hope for repentance for us.

                              Not to take away from the danger of back-sliding...

                              21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

                              Hear that? Better to be AN UNBELIEVER than to know, and turn back. Better to be UNSAVED and HELL-BOUND than to find your way, and lose it.
                              One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father over us all.

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