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  • Rebirth prior to the cross

    During the Lord's ministry, He offered eternal life to any who believed (John 5:24; John 6:47). This was before the church age. Many did believe and according to the Lord, they had eternal life at the time of their belief. Notice that the Lord tells them that if they believe they have eternal life, not that they will have eternal life. Once one has eternal life, it doesn’t stop; it’s eternal. Sounds to me like these people who lived before the cross were regenerated. How can one have eternal life without it? These people who believed and died prior to the cross were OT saints just like David and Abraham.

    David was a man after God’s own heart and Abraham was a friend of God. No one can please God without being regenerated (Rom 8:8-11).

    How could an unregenerate person be an author of Scripture?

  • #2
    Originally posted by LookingUp View Post
    During the Lord's ministry, He offered eternal life to any who believed (John 5:24; John 6:47). This was before the church age. Many did believe and according to the Lord, they had eternal life at the time of their belief. Notice that the Lord tells them that if they believe they have eternal life, not that they will have eternal life. Once one has eternal life, it doesn’t stop; it’s eternal. Sounds to me like these people who lived before the cross were regenerated. How can one have eternal life without it?
    Looking up,
    You have to go back to John 3 when Jesus said that "God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him has eternal life". The present tense has eternal life is the result of believing in Christ whom God gave. Therefore, there was no salvation before Christ died. If so, then it would not have been necessary for Christ to die.
    These people who believed and died prior to the cross were OT saints just like David and Abraham.
    No one who believed before the cross was saved without those who believed after the cross. Speaking about all pre-cross saints Hebrews says this:

    "And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did NOT receive the promise, God having provided something better through us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us" (Hebrews 11:39).

    It says that they merely had received a "good testimony" through faith. But they did NOT have the promise. It says so. And it says that they had to receive the promise through post-cross saints and not apart from them.
    David was a man after God’s own heart and Abraham was a friend of God. No one can please God without being regenerated (Rom 8:8-11). How could an unregenerate person be an author of Scripture?

    First, your understanding of the term "regeneration" is incorrect. Regeneration does not mean "re-birth". It means to be "born from above". A regenerated man is simply a man who has been born from above and he is born from above at his pyhsical birth. Paul taught this principle in Galatians 4. He said that Isaac was born according to the spirit when Sarah gave birth to him. Paul likened Isaac's physical birth of Sarah as being born from the Jerusalem that is from above.

    Conversly, Ishmael was born according to the flesh from his physical birth of Hagar. Paul likened his birth to being born of the earth, that is from beneath.

    Jesus said that a man is either born from above, that is, according to the spirit or he is born according to the flesh. Paul said that this occurs regarding each man when he is born. In other words, men are born regenerated or unregenerated and it is irreversible. But the man who is born regenerated must still believe no matter what and he necessarily will believe.

    Second, your supposition that a man must be regenerated in order to author Scripture cannot stand. God spoke His word through a jack-ass.

    God bless,
    thinker

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by thethinker View Post
      Looking up,
      Originally posted by thethinker View Post
      You have to go back to John 3 when Jesus said that "God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him has eternal life". The present tense has eternal life is the result of believing in Christ whom God gave. Therefore, there was no salvation before Christ died. If so, then it would not have been necessary for Christ to die.

      No one who believed before the cross was saved without those who believed after the cross. Speaking about all pre-cross saints Hebrews says this:

      "And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did NOT receive the promise, God having provided something better through us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us" (Hebrews 11:39).

      It says that they merely had received a "good testimony" through faith. But they did NOT have the promise. It says so. And it says that they had to receive the promise through post-cross saints and not apart from them.
      But Heb. 10:36 says that we await the promise also. We have need of endurance so that when we have done the will of God we may receive what was promised.

      First, your understanding of the term "regeneration" is incorrect. Regeneration does not mean "re-birth". It means to be "born from above". A regenerated man is simply a man who has been born from above and he is born from above at his pyhsical birth. Paul taught this principle in Galatians 4. He said that Isaac was born according to the spirit when Sarah gave birth to him. Paul likened Isaac's physical birth of Sarah as being born from the Jerusalem that is from above.

      Conversly, Ishmael was born according to the flesh from his physical birth of Hagar. Paul likened his birth to being born of the earth, that is from beneath.

      Jesus said that a man is either born from above, that is, according to the spirit or he is born according to the flesh. Paul said that this occurs regarding each man when he is born. In other words, men are born regenerated or unregenerated and it is irreversible. But the man who is born regenerated must still believe no matter what and he necessarily will believe.
      I would say that regeneration (Titus 3:5) includes the following: to pass from death into life (John 5:23); to be alive from the dead (Rom. 6:13); to be born of God (John 1:12; 1 John 3:9; 4:7; 5:4-5); to be born of the Spirit (John 3:8); to be born again/from above (John 3:3-7); to be born again (1 Peter 1:3, 23); and to be a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17).

      Second, your supposition that a man must be regenerated in order to author Scripture cannot stand. God spoke His word through a jack-ass.
      Interesting point, but the jack-ass wasn’t carried along by and inspired by the Holy Spirit to write the word of God.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by LookingUp View Post
        But Heb. 10:36 says that we await the promise also. We have need of endurance so that when we have done the will of God we may receive what was promised.
        It does not say that 21st century saints are waiting for the promise. The "we" were the "firstfruit" Christians in that time. THEY were waiting for the promise. But we today have received it.

        I would say that regeneration (Titus 3:5) includes the following: to pass from death into life (John 5:23); to be alive from the dead (Rom. 6:13); to be born of God (John 1:12; 1 John 3:9; 4:7; 5:4-5); to be born of the Spirit (John 3:8); to be born again/from above (John 3:3-7); to be born again (1 Peter 1:3, 23); and to be a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17).

        No! The regenerated man is simply born from above. The proof texts you offer speak of justification and not regeneration. If you were born from above at your physical birth then you would necessarily come to believe and pass from death to life, that is, be justified.

        Interesting point, but the jack-ass wasn’t carried along by and inspired by the Holy Spirit to write the word of God.

        I believe that all the Biblical authors were regenerated. I was just trying to show you that God is not limited. The regenerated man before the cross did not possess the promise. Christ had to come and die in the "fulness of time" for any man to possess the promise. Your view infers that it was not necessary for Christ to die. What is your reply to this?

        your friend,
        thinker

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by thethinker View Post
          It does not say that 21st century saints are waiting for the promise. The "we" were the "firstfruit" Christians in that time. THEY were waiting for the promise. But we today have received it.
          Why did 1st century saints have to wait but we receive it? With whom or at what time was the cut off point in the 1st century?


          No! The regenerated man is simply born from above. The proof texts you offer speak of justification and not regeneration. If you were born from above at your physical birth then you would necessarily come to believe and pass from death to life, that is, be justified.

          I believe that all the Biblical authors were regenerated. I was just trying to show you that God is not limited. The regenerated man before the cross did not possess the promise. Christ had to come and die in the "fulness of time" for any man to possess the promise. Your view infers that it was not necessary for Christ to die. What is your reply to this?
          I agree that the regenerated man is born from above. Here, maybe this will help…my friend proficient in Greek shared with me…

          “We should begin with some basic definitions. Our old friends, the KJV translators, did us a bit of a disservice by being somewhat inconsistent in their rendering of the relevant terms. John 3 uses the expression gennethenai anothen. What's a bit tricky about the word anothen is that it can mean either 'again, anew' or 'from above.' KJV went with 'born again' rather than 'born from above,' but both translations are entirely correct. Again, my tendency in such a situation is to see both shades of meaning. The author could have easily chosen an expression that unequivocally means 'from above' or 'again/anew;' that he chose one amenable to both understandings seems to me is deliberate. (He does the same thing in 1:5, describing the light which the darkness can neither comprehend nor overtake.) So Jesus is speaking of being 'born again from above' is how I see it. KJV probably went with "again" because of Nicodemus' response ("How can a person re-enter his mother's womb?"). This response is quite remarkable in that Nicodemus should easily have understood our Lord's idiom. In rabbinic Judaism, the conversion of a Gentile to Judaism is called a rebirth. The Gentile enters the miqveh (pool of water) and emerges from the water as a newborn emerges from the waters of his mother's womb. He takes upon himself a new (Jewish) name, and from that point onward is known no longer as "son of so-and-so" (his earthly Gentile father) but as "Son of Abraham" because he has now begun his new life as a Jew. That Nicodemus was baffled by this can, to me, mean only that he found it simply unimaginable that a Jew would need rebirth in order to enter God's kingdom just as much as would any Gentile. (Nicodemus, of course, eventually does come to grips with this reality, but apparently just can't get his head around it here.) Jesus Himself in this passage equates being born again from above with being born of the Spirit, and the frequent use of the expression being 'born of God' in John indicates to me that it is also the same phenomenon.

          Peter uses the verb anagennao to describe the new birth. This verb is a simple compound of ana (like anothen, it means both 'up' and 'again') and gennao (as in John 3). So it's quite literally the same expression as we've seen in Jesus' talk with Nicodemus, just with a different grammatical inflection. He tells us we that God has "borned you again" (I know that sounds goofy in English, but it's the only way to make the sense clear) by His great mercy. The figure of God giving birth may seem a bit startling, but Paul applies a similar figure to himself in Galatians 4:19 (cf. 1 Thessalonians 2:7). Peter follows this up by saying "you have been born again, not of corrupt seed but of incorruptible seed, through God's word which lives and remains forever."

          Paul does not use the word 'born' in a spiritual sense, with the exception of Galatians 4:29, where he implicitly contrasts the body of Christ with the nation of Israel; the church parallels Isaac, who was "born according to the Spirit." In this verse, the expression "born according to the Spirit" simply refers to Isaac's miraculous birth in contrast to Ishmael's natural birth, but one could argue that "born according to the Spirit" describes our salvation as well. The expression Paul does use is the noun palingennesia, which quite literally translates as "again-birth" (Titus 3:5). The meaning of this word is so identical to that of the verbal expressions in John and Peter, I find it simply impossible to imagine the realities so described are not essentially the same.

          In numerous places the NT speaks of those who do not know God as being "dead." Christ tells us that knowing God = having eternal life (John 17:3). Various texts inform us that we possess eternal life (1 John 5:11), that one who believes in Christ has passed from death into life (John 5:23), that we who believe are alive from the dead (Romans 6:13). Since life begins with birth, it seems self-evident to me that those who are alive spiritually have been born spiritually; in other words, those who have a relationship with God through faith in Christ have been born again from above by the Spirit into Christ. This probably underlies Paul's teaching in 2 Corinthians 5:17 about us being a new creation. Interestingly, the apostle's wording here is unusually concise: "If anyone in Christ, new creation." Paul's normally not quite so sparing with his words. Some have interpreted this to the effect that it is not the individual but the body of Christ which is the new creation. Again, I don't think we're forced to choose one against the other. Truly the body of Christ is a new creation of God, but so is each and every one of us. As Jesus in John 3, Paul is likely indulging in some Jewish terminology here. The rabbis taught that Abraham at some point (in one understanding, at his circumcision) became a "new creation." How cogent of Paul to appropriate a Pharisaic description of Abraham entering the covenant of circumcision and apply it to all of us who are in Christ, regardless of whether we're circumcised or uncircumcised! It's faith in Christ, not circumcision, that makes one a new creation (cf. Galatians 5:6). So I would take "new creation" and "new birth" as synonymous. Slightly different emphasis, perhaps, but the same essential concept. Paul connects the new creation (we are "created in Christ Jesus") with being made alive in Christ in Ephesians 2:5-10.

          Paul extends the "new creation" metaphor of 2 Corinthians in his presentation of the "one new person" (Greek anthropos, while grammatically masculine, denotes a human being regardless of sex) in Ephesians 2. The new creation of Corinthians doesn't so much emphasize the elimination of the Jew/Gentile barrier (although Paul certainly taught the unity of the body regardless of one's Jewish or Gentile background; e.g., in 1 Corinthians 7), but that's the central truth of the one new human -- the new Adam, one might say -- of Ephesians 2. The primary focus here is indeed collective -- it's the body of Christ rather than the individual who is the "one new person" -- but Paul clearly extends this metaphor to the individual in 4:22-24, where he introduces a parallel character -- "the old person" (one might say, "old self" or "old identity" -- although I like to avoid "old nature" because it's been somewhat abused over the years). The emphasis here is no longer on the eradication of the Jew/Gentile barrier (note the absence of the qualifier "one") but on the contrast between our old life, when we did not know God (2:12; 4:18) and our new life in Christ, which results from our having been born again. One who is reborn truly is a new person! Paul uses similar terminology in Colossians 3:10, declaring that we have taken off the old person and put on the new (the metaphor is of changing one's clothing). The Ephesians reference to taking off the old and putting on the new is taken by most as a mandate, but (especially in light of Colossians) could also be taken as a statement of fact. Because we have been changed from the old to the new, we can walk in the newness of life.

          These ideas all flow marvelously together. Rebirth is connected to cleansing in Titus; cleansing is connected to the word of God in Ephesians 5; the word of God is connected to rebirth in 1 Peter. Many more such connections could be noted.”

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by LookingUp View Post
            Why did 1st century saints have to wait but we receive it? With whom or at what time was the cut off point in the 1st century?

            I agree that the regenerated man is born from above. Here, maybe this will help…my friend proficient in Greek shared with me…

            “We should begin with some basic definitions. Our old friends, the KJV translators, did us a bit of a disservice by being somewhat inconsistent in their rendering of the relevant terms. John 3 uses the expression gennethenai anothen. What's a bit tricky about the word anothen is that it can mean either 'again, anew' or 'from above.' KJV went with 'born again' rather than 'born from above,' but both translations are entirely correct. Again, my tendency in such a situation is to see both shades of meaning. The author could have easily chosen an expression that unequivocally means 'from above' or 'again/anew;' that he chose one amenable to both understandings seems to me is deliberate. (He does the same thing in 1:5, describing the light which the darkness can neither comprehend nor overtake.) So Jesus is speaking of being 'born again from above' is how I see it. KJV probably went with "again" because of Nicodemus' response ("How can a person re-enter his mother's womb?"). This response is quite remarkable in that Nicodemus should easily have understood our Lord's idiom. In rabbinic Judaism, the conversion of a Gentile to Judaism is called a rebirth. The Gentile enters the miqveh (pool of water) and emerges from the water as a newborn emerges from the waters of his mother's womb. He takes upon himself a new (Jewish) name, and from that point onward is known no longer as "son of so-and-so" (his earthly Gentile father) but as "Son of Abraham" because he has now begun his new life as a Jew. That Nicodemus was baffled by this can, to me, mean only that he found it simply unimaginable that a Jew would need rebirth in order to enter God's kingdom just as much as would any Gentile. (Nicodemus, of course, eventually does come to grips with this reality, but apparently just can't get his head around it here.) Jesus Himself in this passage equates being born again from above with being born of the Spirit, and the frequent use of the expression being 'born of God' in John indicates to me that it is also the same phenomenon.

            Peter uses the verb anagennao to describe the new birth. This verb is a simple compound of ana (like anothen, it means both 'up' and 'again') and gennao (as in John 3). So it's quite literally the same expression as we've seen in Jesus' talk with Nicodemus, just with a different grammatical inflection. He tells us we that God has "borned you again" (I know that sounds goofy in English, but it's the only way to make the sense clear) by His great mercy. The figure of God giving birth may seem a bit startling, but Paul applies a similar figure to himself in Galatians 4:19 (cf. 1 Thessalonians 2:7). Peter follows this up by saying "you have been born again, not of corrupt seed but of incorruptible seed, through God's word which lives and remains forever."

            Paul does not use the word 'born' in a spiritual sense, with the exception of Galatians 4:29, where he implicitly contrasts the body of Christ with the nation of Israel; the church parallels Isaac, who was "born according to the Spirit." In this verse, the expression "born according to the Spirit" simply refers to Isaac's miraculous birth in contrast to Ishmael's natural birth, but one could argue that "born according to the Spirit" describes our salvation as well. The expression Paul does use is the noun palingennesia, which quite literally translates as "again-birth" (Titus 3:5). The meaning of this word is so identical to that of the verbal expressions in John and Peter, I find it simply impossible to imagine the realities so described are not essentially the same.

            In numerous places the NT speaks of those who do not know God as being "dead." Christ tells us that knowing God = having eternal life (John 17:3). Various texts inform us that we possess eternal life (1 John 5:11), that one who believes in Christ has passed from death into life (John 5:23), that we who believe are alive from the dead (Romans 6:13). Since life begins with birth, it seems self-evident to me that those who are alive spiritually have been born spiritually; in other words, those who have a relationship with God through faith in Christ have been born again from above by the Spirit into Christ. This probably underlies Paul's teaching in 2 Corinthians 5:17 about us being a new creation. Interestingly, the apostle's wording here is unusually concise: "If anyone in Christ, new creation." Paul's normally not quite so sparing with his words. Some have interpreted this to the effect that it is not the individual but the body of Christ which is the new creation. Again, I don't think we're forced to choose one against the other. Truly the body of Christ is a new creation of God, but so is each and every one of us. As Jesus in John 3, Paul is likely indulging in some Jewish terminology here. The rabbis taught that Abraham at some point (in one understanding, at his circumcision) became a "new creation." How cogent of Paul to appropriate a Pharisaic description of Abraham entering the covenant of circumcision and apply it to all of us who are in Christ, regardless of whether we're circumcised or uncircumcised! It's faith in Christ, not circumcision, that makes one a new creation (cf. Galatians 5:6). So I would take "new creation" and "new birth" as synonymous. Slightly different emphasis, perhaps, but the same essential concept. Paul connects the new creation (we are "created in Christ Jesus") with being made alive in Christ in Ephesians 2:5-10.

            Paul extends the "new creation" metaphor of 2 Corinthians in his presentation of the "one new person" (Greek anthropos, while grammatically masculine, denotes a human being regardless of sex) in Ephesians 2. The new creation of Corinthians doesn't so much emphasize the elimination of the Jew/Gentile barrier (although Paul certainly taught the unity of the body regardless of one's Jewish or Gentile background; e.g., in 1 Corinthians 7), but that's the central truth of the one new human -- the new Adam, one might say -- of Ephesians 2. The primary focus here is indeed collective -- it's the body of Christ rather than the individual who is the "one new person" -- but Paul clearly extends this metaphor to the individual in 4:22-24, where he introduces a parallel character -- "the old person" (one might say, "old self" or "old identity" -- although I like to avoid "old nature" because it's been somewhat abused over the years). The emphasis here is no longer on the eradication of the Jew/Gentile barrier (note the absence of the qualifier "one") but on the contrast between our old life, when we did not know God (2:12; 4:18) and our new life in Christ, which results from our having been born again. One who is reborn truly is a new person! Paul uses similar terminology in Colossians 3:10, declaring that we have taken off the old person and put on the new (the metaphor is of changing one's clothing). The Ephesians reference to taking off the old and putting on the new is taken by most as a mandate, but (especially in light of Colossians) could also be taken as a statement of fact. Because we have been changed from the old to the new, we can walk in the newness of life.

            These ideas all flow marvelously together. Rebirth is connected to cleansing in Titus; cleansing is connected to the word of God in Ephesians 5; the word of God is connected to rebirth in 1 Peter. Many more such connections could be noted.”
            LookingUp,
            I have provided a simple statement from Paul that shows that Isaac's birth of Sarah amounted to being born form above. Paul said that this was birth according to the spirit. And Ishmael's birth of Hagar amounted to being born according to the flesh.

            This is simple. But you reply with stuff which nobody can understand which you got from a friend who is allegedly a Greek scholar. Men are born from above or from beneath from the womb. Those who are born from above will believe in Jesus. Those who are born from beneath will not.

            thinker

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by thethinker View Post
              LookingUp,
              I have provided a simple statement from Paul that shows that Isaac's birth of Sarah amounted to being born form above. Paul said that this was birth according to the spirit. And Ishmael's birth of Hagar amounted to being born according to the flesh.

              This is simple. But you reply with stuff which nobody can understand which you got from a friend who is allegedly a Greek scholar. Men are born from above or from beneath from the womb. Those who are born from above will believe in Jesus. Those who are born from beneath will not.

              thinker
              I'm sorry you can't understand the post. I thought it would be helpful. I don't know that I'd call my friend a Greek scholar, but he is proficient and enjoys the language. Perhaps read through it slowly while looking up the verses given.

              Comment


              • #8
                As far as the OP is concerned I do believe the Old Testament saints were born again.
                "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

                -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
                  As far as the OP is concerned I do believe the Old Testament saints were born again.
                  I agree. They were born again in exactly the same way we are - by faith in Christ. While we look "back" at His sacrifice, they looked "forward" to The Promise.
                  I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
                  - Mahatma Gandhi



                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
                    As far as the OP is concerned I do believe the Old Testament saints were born again.
                    I lean that way too, but then I wonder what the cross was for if not to make it possible for us to be born again/have eternal life?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Vhayes View Post
                      I agree. They were born again in exactly the same way we are - by faith in Christ. While we look "back" at His sacrifice, they looked "forward" to The Promise.
                      I have the same question for you as verticalreality above... what do you think?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I guess I'm not sure what you're asking - they were saved by faith in the coming Messiah.

                        Genesis 26
                        3 - "Sojourn in this land and I will be with you and bless you, for to you and to your descendants I will give all these lands, and I will establish the oath which I swore to your father Abraham.
                        4" - I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;
                        5 - because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."


                        Romans 4
                        9 - Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
                        10 - How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
                        11 - and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
                        12 - and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.
                        13 - For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
                        14 - For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;
                        15 - for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

                        Does that help any?
                        V
                        I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
                        - Mahatma Gandhi



                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by LookingUp View Post
                          I lean that way too, but then I wonder what the cross was for if not to make it possible for us to be born again/have eternal life?
                          I agree with Vhayes. The Old Testament saints looked forward in faith for the same thing we look back in faith for.
                          "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

                          -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Vhayes View Post
                            I guess I'm not sure what you're asking - they were saved by faith in the coming Messiah.
                            Originally posted by Vhayes View Post

                            Genesis 26
                            3 - "Sojourn in this land and I will be with you and bless you, for to you and to your descendants I will give all these lands, and I will establish the oath which I swore to your father Abraham.
                            4" - I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;
                            5 - because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."


                            Romans 4
                            9 - Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
                            10 - How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
                            11 - and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
                            12 - and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.
                            13 - For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
                            14 - For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;
                            15 - for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

                            Does that help any?
                            V
                            Well that shows me that OT saints were righteous but it doesn’t show me that they were saved. Righteous does not equal saved.

                            I'm just trying to get a grasp on what exactly the cross brought to us that it did not bring to the OT saints when they were living. If living OT saints were regenerated/born again, what was the cross needed for?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Why did Jesus blow on them and say receive the Holy Ghost after the resurrection? They were completely clean by faith before that. Why after the resurrection?

                              Comment

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