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  • Inherently Evil/Inherently Good

    Which do you think it is? Each belief has it's effect on Christian community, and changes the way you would talk to unbelievers.

    But, which is the truth? Scripture seems to support both views.

    The Antichrist will be taught and raised by the christian church. He will come from your own, not from the "outsiders". "Thus saith the Eternal, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house. . . ."

  • #2
    man is totally depraved. this doesnt mean that he is as evil as he can possibly be, but every part of his being has been tainted by the effects and power of sin. The Bible is clear that the heart of man is wicked, and that those without the Spirit have minds that are hostile and cannot recieve or submit to things of the Spirit. This doesnt mean that humans dont do "good things". Athiests can build hospitals, feed the poor etc. However the Bible also plainly says that anything apart from faith is sin. It doesnt matter what we do, if it is apart from faith, it is sin. All unbelievers are perpetually living in sin, until they accept Christ. All of our righteous deeds(the good stuff we do!) is as filthy rags(mentsral rags to be more specific)

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Scubadude View Post
      Which do you think it is? Each belief has it's effect on Christian community, and changes the way you would talk to unbelievers.

      But, which is the truth? Scripture seems to support both views.
      We were created in God's image.

      Did Adam undo what God did?

      Comment


      • #4
        reformedct:
        man is totally depraved. this doesnt mean that he is as evil as he can possibly be, but every part of his being has been tainted by the effects and power of sin. The Bible is clear that the heart of man is wicked, and that those without the Spirit have minds that are hostile and cannot recieve or submit to things of the Spirit. This doesnt mean that humans dont do "good things". Athiests can build hospitals, feed the poor etc. However the Bible also plainly says that anything apart from faith is sin. It doesnt matter what we do, if it is apart from faith, it is sin. All unbelievers are perpetually living in sin, until they accept Christ. All of our righteous deeds(the good stuff we do!) is as filthy rags(mentsral rags to be more specific)
        Could you back this up with Scripture? Not that I am necessarily disagreeing with you, just that showing where Scripture teaches this would substantially strengthen your argument. And after all, this is Bible Chat.
        Who have I in heaven but You oh God? Besides You, I desire nothing here on earth. My heart and my flesh may fail me, but God will be the strength of my heart and my portion forever...as for me, the nearness of God is my good - Psalm 73:25-26, 28a

        Check out my new blog at pilgrimtozion.blogspot.com

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Pilgrimtozion View Post
          Could you back this up with Scripture? Not that I am necessarily disagreeing with you, just that showing where Scripture teaches this would substantially strengthen your argument. And after all, this is Bible Chat.
          why certainly lol

          in Mark 7:21-23 Jesus said, "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23"All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man." and....

          Matt. 15:19 He said, "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. 20"These are the things which defile the man." and...John 8:34, "Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."


          <li style="font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10pt;"> Jer. 17:9, "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?"
          Rom. 7:18, "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not."

          Psalm 5:9 - There is nothing reliable in what they say; their inward part is destruction itself. Their throat is an open grave; they flatter with their tongue.

          Ecclesiastes 9:3 - the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.

          Proverbs 28:26 - He who trusts in his own heart is a fool

          • Romans 8:7 - the mind set on the flesh... does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so

          1 Corinthians 2:14 - But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.


          no faith= sin Romans 14:23: "Whatever is not from faith is sin."

          can man at least understand the gospel by themselves?

          2 Corinthians 4:3-4 - our gospel is veiled... to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.



          as i said before this doesnt mean that mankind is AS EVIL AS IT CAN BE. it means that every faculty of the human being apart from God is affected by sin and its effects


          also, man does still bear the image of God
          . He is still fearfully and wonderfully made. However it is also true at the same time that he is indeed in a state of fallenness and wickidness

          from these verses i would feel very wrong to say that man is inherently good. The Bible is clear as seen in these Scriptures that the mind is fallen, the flesh is fallen, and the heart(core) is fallen.

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          • #6
            Jeremiah 17:9 (NLT) - The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is?

            One vote for the "inherently bad" column.
            θεοφιλε

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            • #7
              Yet another of the mysterious of paradoxes of God.

              Man is totally depraved, and in his heart is nothing good, yet even an evil man gives bread to his children and not stones.

              Man is made in the image of God and at the same time is inherently bad is his fallen state.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by reformedct View Post
                man is totally depraved. this doesnt mean that he is as evil as he can possibly be, but every part of his being has been tainted by the effects and power of sin. The Bible is clear that the heart of man is wicked, and that those without the Spirit have minds that are hostile and cannot recieve or submit to things of the Spirit. This doesnt mean that humans dont do "good things". Athiests can build hospitals, feed the poor etc. However the Bible also plainly says that anything apart from faith is sin. It doesnt matter what we do, if it is apart from faith, it is sin. All unbelievers are perpetually living in sin, until they accept Christ. All of our righteous deeds(the good stuff we do!) is as filthy rags(mentsral rags to be more specific)
                Adam and Eve were made, and they were pronounced VERY good. The sin they committed did not change the core of who they were. They still fulfilled God's command to fill and multiply, till the ground, God continued to interact with them and humanity. We are not inherently evil. Sinful, but not evil. Sin is a cancerous tumor. IT has no right to exist. But, being created in the image of God, we do.

                When have you ever heard of people walking through a maternity ward saying, "God help us for all these new, wicked little evil beings who will just add more suffering to the world!" ?

                And, since this is Bible Chat, the Jer 17:9 passage doesn't suggest that we are inherently evil, just sinners. The sinfulness of sinning is in the fact that we are really better than that, but chose to act differently, separating ourselves from the Lord.

                The Antichrist will be taught and raised by the christian church. He will come from your own, not from the "outsiders". "Thus saith the Eternal, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house. . . ."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Man is born into a sinful nature, because of Adam and Eve. I think they are born inherently evil, but can become good if they accept Christ.
                  Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth, and The Life.

                  Soli Deo Gloria!


                  My Video's:
                  http://www.youtube.com/thewoodsofjordan

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Scubadude View Post
                    Adam and Eve were made, and they were pronounced VERY good. The sin they committed did not change the core of who they were. They still fulfilled God's command to fill and multiply, till the ground, God continued to interact with them and humanity. We are not inherently evil. Sinful, but not evil. Sin is a cancerous tumor. IT has no right to exist. But, being created in the image of God, we do.

                    When have you ever heard of people walking through a maternity ward saying, "God help us for all these new, wicked little evil beings who will just add more suffering to the world!" ?

                    And, since this is Bible Chat, the Jer 17:9 passage doesn't suggest that we are inherently evil, just sinners. The sinfulness of sinning is in the fact that we are really better than that, but chose to act differently, separating ourselves from the Lord.
                    i never said that their sin changed who they were as people created by God. They, as well as we, are still created in the image of God. yes, they still mulitiplied and all that, i never claimed they did not. But they were in fact affected to the core. Whoever commits a sin is a slave to it. Not simply a good guy who does bad but a slave. the Bible teaches that we are rebels from birth. is it possible to be a sinless rebel?

                    • Psalm 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb; those who speak lies go astray from birth.
                    • Isaiah 48:8 - "You have not heard, you have not known. Even from long ago your ear has not been open, because I knew that you would deal very treacherously; and you have been called a rebel from birth."
                    • Psalm 51:5 - Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.
                    • Genesis 8:21 - the Lord said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth


                    you say that their sin did not change their core. Could you please show Scripture that backs that assumption? also, is not the heart the core of our being?

                    As i said we do still carry the image of God. i never said that wasnt the cae. we are fearfully and wonderfully made, meaning that God has created humans as a spectacular show of His glory. The way the human works and thinks and moves is amazing and testimony to itelligent design. However you must also accept the rest of Scripture that clearly says all facets of man are fallen.


                    They are not as bad as they could be. There is still a form of "goodness" in a man, for example even a sinner will give his son bread if he asks, etc, but the heart is also full of wikedness and whoever commits sin is a slave to sin. The Bible says all have sinned. therefore, all are slaves. Sinners still have a sense of what is right/wrong. they have a sense of justie and mercy. these are because we are indeed in the image of God. However Scripture STRONGLY indicates that the mind, the heart, and the flesh are corrupted, and that all have sinned

                    You are not really disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with what the Bible says


                    if we are not good to the core, simply try an expirement. Try to stop sinning. let me know if you suceed for more than a year. The Bible says that all this evil comes from the heart of man. i do not know how much clearer it could be? the heart is the very core of man

                    also i see you have claimed that being evil from the heart does not mean inherently sinful? so i can have an evil heart but not be inherently sinful?

                    also, we are not merely sinners. our hearts are FULL of evil

                    Ecclesiastes 9:3 - the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.

                    dont get upset with me, thats what the BIble, the Word of God says. I dont really give much heed to your "hospital room of evil babies" example. i base my truths on what the Bible says, not philosophical speculation


                    Do you seriously believe that when the Bible says our HEARTS are full of evil and wicked that it simply means "we make sinful choices?"

                    Jesus has already made it clear that all these evil things come from THE HEART of man. OUR SINFULNESS EXTENDS BEYOND OUR CHOICE AND IS BROUGHT FORTH FROM OUR VERY OWN HEARTS. not that we simply do bad things, but bad things come from our HEARTs. the bible says our HEarts are wicked. a bad tree CANNOT produce good fruit. The Bible clearly and repeatedly says that we are evil at the core, to our very hearts


                    i do not see where the confusion is. Perhaps someone else has been teaching you that we are inherently good? i know in America and in the world we like to assume that deep down man is good. This is beause we want to have "self-esteem" or feel good about ourselves or find some sort of value in ourselves. The fact is that all of our value and worth is in Christ. apart from Him the bible says we are worms and that all have become worthless. Not very good for self-esteem huh?

                    the Bible says anything apart from faith is sin. Are babies born having faith in God?

                    also i noticed you made a comment about us choosing evil when we knew better. Although that was the case with Adam and Eve BEFORE THEY SINNED, you cant use that as an example of fallen humanity, because the Bible already declares that all have sinned, and that we are by nature objects of Gods wrath. We go astray from the womb. we are evil from our youth.

                    This was not the case with Adam and EVe because they were born in faithful relationship with God in a sinless state. However after they sinned sin spread to all.

                    Psalms 5:5 God HATES all who do evil. This doesnt mean we should be mean to unbelievers but the fact is that although God loves them, His wrath is on them because of thier NATURE

                    now, does the words, BY NATURE objects of Gods wrath, simply mean we make bad choices even though we are better than that, or do we make bad choices by our nature? if our nature is good, why is it deserving of Gods wrath?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mikebr View Post
                      We were created in God's image.

                      Did Adam undo what God did?
                      Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

                      Good call. We were made sinners by Adam's disobedience.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mikebr View Post
                        We were created in God's image.

                        Did Adam undo what God did?
                        They can only claim he did, without ANY (0 - nada - none) supporting scripture.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sirus View Post
                          They can only claim he did, without ANY (0 - nada - none) supporting scripture.
                          did you happen to read my earlier comment?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by reformedct View Post
                            did you happen to read my earlier comment?
                            Yes. The question is "Inherently Evil/Inherently Good"
                            but none of the scriptures you posted say anything about that, do they? No, and they certainly don't say anything about a change taking place in Adam to the negative that can be passed on to his descendants.

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                            • #15
                              Now we just have to wait for someone to post Psalm 51 in context language and law and the thread will be complete.

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