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Psalm 51:5

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  • Psalm 51:5

    Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.


    just wanted to hear the arguments that this is referring to Davids environment and not his own sin. (Jewish interpretation, etc) and provide eviedence on why you believe your interpretation is correct

  • #2
    There are those (I couldn't name any names; I've just heard of it somewhere or another) who would take this to mean that the act of sex itself is inherently sinful.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Psalms Fan View Post
      There are those (I couldn't name any names; I've just heard of it somewhere or another) who would take this to mean that the act of sex itself is inherently sinful.
      hey psalms fan,

      thats an interesting view, however i think we can be sure that cant be the answer, because how would Adam and Eve multiply? lol. plus we have books like Song of Solomon

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Psalms Fan View Post
        There are those (I couldn't name any names; I've just heard of it somewhere or another) who would take this to mean that the act of sex itself is inherently sinful.
        And IMO thats ridiculous.

        I prefer the New Living Translation.
        According to it Psalm 51:5 reads:

        "For I was born a sinner—
        yes, from the moment my mother conceived me"



        That makes more sense. It means you're born a sinner because you inherit the DNA from your parents. You basically have no choice in that, you're stuck with it.

        Thats why Mary was impregnated with the Holy Spirit and became pregnant with Jesus.
        Jesus had both godly DNA and human DNA, so he was both God and human at the same time

        Comment


        • #5
          I wasn't say that that is what I think. Just that it's out there.

          The OP asked for someone who has an opinion other than his own to give reasons why. I probably pretty much agree with the OP as to having a sinful nature, so I felt no reason to give my own opinion.

          Comment


          • #6
            Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

            We did not become sinners of our own accord. We were made sinners through the disobedience of one man.

            We did not become righteous of our own accord. We were made righteous through the obedience of one man.

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            • #7
              lol once again, i personally believe we are born fallen. This thread is for those who believe that this passage refers to something other than David being born a sinner to voice their opinion and provide Scripture

              Comment


              • #8
                It's better to look for those things which are common between believers than to look for things that divide.
                Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
                Not second or third, but first.
                Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
                when He is the source of all hope,
                when His love is received and freely given,
                holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
                will all other things be added unto to you.

                Comment


                • #9
                  i understand, but for my own confidence in what i believe, i think it is only fair that i listen to the other side.

                  here is an interesting study on the original hebrew here. A person mentioned that it referred to the actual act of conception. So either the act of sex is wrong, or that David was a sinner at the point of conception in the womb? maybe this verse is more supportive of being born sinners than i thought! that would mean not only are we born sinners but that we are sinful from the point of the sperma and egg coming together! perhaps i am wrong but here is an interesting piece:

                  Psalm 51 in the Hebrew Text
                  To begin with the Hebrew, the verse is roughly transliterated from the original characters
                  as “ubechete yechemachni imi”
                  viii
                  and can be translated as “sinful in my mother’s hot
                  passion.” The word often translated as “conceived” (“yechemachni” in Hebrew) actually
                  refers directly to the sexual act of conception and arousal, as the demonstrated by the
                  rendering of “hot passion.” It could also be more colloquially translated as “sinful from
                  the time my mother was hot.” Clearly to read the text as the Hebrew reader understood it
                  and claim that the verse describes an event later than conception is unfounded and
                  oblivious to the original language. If we truly believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word
                  of God then we are left to conclude that the beginning of life, as the text indicates, must
                  be traced back to the sexual act which created it. Attempts to shift the beginning of life
                  beyond this are simply false distinctions.
                  Psalm 51 in the Septuagint
                  Page 3
                  3
                  The Septuagint is equally as explicit. Psalm 51, in its Greek rendering, reads
                  “Ιδου γαρ εν ανομιας συνελημφθην, και εν αμαρτιας εκισσησεν με η μητηρ
                  μου”
                  ix
                  (emphasis added). The focus here is on the bolded word, “εκισσησεν,” a form of
                  the Greek word “κισσαω.” This word, like the Hebrew “yechemachni,” refers directly to
                  the act of conceiving. In fact, in many ways it has a similar connotation of experiencing
                  a “burning passion.” While it can be rendered literally as “conceive,” unlike it’s Hebrew
                  counterpart, the word “κισσαω”has many different hues, as demonstrated by other Greek
                  literature of the time.
                  The main source of reference in this regard is the Greek comedy writer and satirist,
                  Aristophanes, who wrote many works in the late fourth and early fifth centuries, B.C. In
                  his drama, Wasps, Aristophanes uses a form of “κισσω” to say “I burn to run along the
                  tiers of the tribunal with my voting-pebble in my hand”
                  x
                  (emphasis added). The word
                  can even refer to an intense longing. In the play Peace, also by Aristophanes, the word is
                  used to pose the question, “Do you at least, who long for peace, pull heartily?”
                  xi
                  Both
                  burning and longing complement the idea of conception and put this verse in complete
                  harmony with the Hebrew text. Clearly, as with the Hebrew, to interpret the text as a
                  Greek reader would understand leaves no room for speculation. Similarly, to claim that
                  the verse describes an event later than conception is to neglect the clear evidence of the
                  text and related uses of the word “κισσω.”

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by reformedct View Post
                    Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.


                    just wanted to hear the arguments that this is referring to Davids environment and not his own sin. (Jewish interpretation, etc) and provide eviedence on why you believe your interpretation is correct
                    Greetings.

                    The language of David does not define the sin as belonging to him, but rather to his mother. David had nothing to do with his own conception.

                    Jake
                    Jake

                    What does the bible say?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Clydson View Post
                      Greetings.

                      The language of David does not define the sin as belonging to him, but rather to his mother. David had nothing to do with his own conception.

                      Jake
                      hey jake,

                      could you please provide Scripture/ commentary that would support that? Also, why would David start talking about his mothers sin in the middle of him talking about his own sin? Also, if his mother is the one who sinned, how? is it a sin to have sex?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

                        I see what Jake is saying and would not jump to disagree.

                        Look at it rephrased for context.

                        David was shaped in iniquity; his mother who was in sin conceived David.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
                          Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

                          I see what Jake is saying and would not jump to disagree.

                          Look at it rephrased for context.

                          David was shaped in iniquity; his mother who was in sin conceived David.
                          So are all of us. No man begotten of man has been born sinless. We are all in sinful flesh. No biggie there.
                          Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
                          Not second or third, but first.
                          Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
                          when He is the source of all hope,
                          when His love is received and freely given,
                          holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
                          will all other things be added unto to you.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
                            Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

                            I see what Jake is saying and would not jump to disagree.

                            Look at it rephrased for context.

                            David was shaped in iniquity; his mother who was in sin conceived David.
                            Very well said. This goes quite well with David's son who wrote, "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions" Eccl 7:29.

                            God did not make man corrupted. Man corrupted himself with his own inventions. Also consider;

                            James 1:12-16
                            12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
                            13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
                            14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
                            15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
                            16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
                            NKJV

                            God neither corrupts nor tempts man to sin. God made man upright.

                            Jake
                            Jake

                            What does the bible say?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Clydson View Post
                              Very well said. This goes quite well with David's son who wrote, "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions" Eccl 7:29.

                              God did not make man corrupted. Man corrupted himself with his own inventions. Also consider;

                              James 1:12-16
                              12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
                              13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
                              14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
                              15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
                              16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
                              NKJV

                              God neither corrupts nor tempts man to sin. God made man upright.

                              Jake
                              so how was his mother in sin? i encourage you all to look at the original hebrew and greek interpretations of this verse that i posted a little earlier

                              Comment

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