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  • Election/predestination

    Is election/foreknowledge/predestination based on forseen faith?

    if so, please use Scripture to support

    if not, please use Scripture to support

  • #2
    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6

    This passage clearly shows that election (God choosing people) is for salvation. So the idea that God elects everybody is false unless you believe in universalism which is also false. And the reason God elects us is 'according to the purpose of his will'.

    Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. 1 Peter 1:1-2

    Peter tells us that election is 'according to the foreknowledge of God'. I think we should all note that nowhere in this passage (and nowhere else in the Bible) does it say this 'foreknowledge' is 'foreseen faith'. To say that is adding your own interpretation into the text. From what I understand 'foreknowledge' as used in the Bible is not simply 'knowing beforehand' (this is assumed in God's omniscience), it's more like 'fore-loving'.

    So election is based on God's love for us and according to his will. That's how I see it anyway.
    sigpic

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    • #3
      Originally posted by BrckBrln View Post
      Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6

      This passage clearly shows that election (God choosing people) is for salvation. So the idea that God elects everybody is false unless you believe in universalism which is also false. And the reason God elects us is 'according to the purpose of his will'.

      Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. 1 Peter 1:1-2

      Peter tells us that election is 'according to the foreknowledge of God'. I think we should all note that nowhere in this passage (and nowhere else in the Bible) does it say this 'foreknowledge' is 'foreseen faith'. To say that is adding your own interpretation into the text. From what I understand 'foreknowledge' as used in the Bible is not simply 'knowing beforehand' (this is assumed in God's omniscience), it's more like 'fore-loving'.

      So election is based on God's love for us and according to his will. That's how I see it anyway.

      i agree. i have been studying to see if Scripture supports the notion that God forsees our faith and thus chooses us. I have yet to see one. I actually even came across a verse that says that faith COMES from Christ.

      1 timothy 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus

      so if election is based on knowing who would get "in" Christ by faith, No one would be elect, because faith itself is IN Christ already! lol how would we get in without faith, which was also in Christ??


      however i could be wrong so i am opening this to discussion

      Comment


      • #4
        So... we are saved by election. Interesting concept.


        Visit our new website
        ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

        A.W. Tozer said,
        "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.

        GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ProjectPeter View Post
          So... we are saved by election. Interesting concept.
          We are saved by believing in Christ but we would never believe if we weren't elected beforehand. Election itself doesn't save us, Christ's work on the cross does.
          sigpic

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          • #6
            Originally posted by BrckBrln View Post
            We are saved by believing in Christ but we would never believe if we weren't elected beforehand. Election itself doesn't save us, Christ's work on the cross does.
            But then that same work on the cross can't save you unless you have been elected... right?


            Visit our new website
            ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

            A.W. Tozer said,
            "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.

            GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by ProjectPeter View Post
              But then that same work on the cross can't save you unless you have been elected... right?
              Right. It seems like you want to say salvation is only concerned with Jesus as if the Father and Holy Spirit have no part in it. God the Father elects us, God the Son accomplishes redemption for us, and God the Holy Spirit applies this redemption to us.
              sigpic

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              • #8
                So if election is required before one can be "saved" then one is saved because of election... not the cross of Christ. The cross of Christ wouldn't have even been necessary if folks were already pre-packaged (so to speak) for heaven. The doctrine is terribly flawed because it truly does put salvation by election. You are elected to have faith therefore you will have faith automatically at some point in time so it isn't even about faith... still boils down to election.

                If nothing else... it is fun to watch Reformed folk dance around this fact.


                Visit our new website
                ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

                A.W. Tozer said,
                "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.

                GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ProjectPeter View Post
                  So if election is required before one can be "saved" then one is saved because of election... not the cross of Christ. The cross of Christ wouldn't have even been necessary if folks were already pre-packaged (so to speak) for heaven. The doctrine is terribly flawed because it truly does put salvation by election. You are elected to have faith therefore you will have faith automatically at some point in time so it isn't even about faith... still boils down to election.

                  If nothing else... it is fun to watch Reformed folk dance around this fact.
                  It's fun to see Arminians (or whatever you are) mess up this fact.

                  You are separating God the Father and God the Holy Spirit from salvation by saying it's only God the Son with whom salvation is concerned. The cross of Christ was/is necessary for us to be saved as it's the means by which we are saved.
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by BrckBrln View Post
                    It's fun to see Arminians (or whatever you are) mess up this fact.

                    You are separating God the Father and God the Holy Spirit from salvation by saying it's only God the Son with whom salvation is concerned. The cross of Christ was/is necessary for us to be saved as it's the means by which we are saved.
                    Funny, thought it was just said that without being elected, that one can't be saved. How is anything else weighed if without election we are lost anyhow?

                    Ephesians 1
                    3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
                    4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love
                    5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
                    6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
                    7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us.



                    We are blessed in Christ, chosen in Him, through Him, in the Beloved, redemption through His blood, according to His grace.

                    Christ and Christ alone, no other way. Through Him, not election.
                    Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
                    Not second or third, but first.
                    Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
                    when He is the source of all hope,
                    when His love is received and freely given,
                    holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
                    will all other things be added unto to you.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by BrckBrln View Post
                      It's fun to see Arminians (or whatever you are) mess up this fact.

                      You are separating God the Father and God the Holy Spirit from salvation by saying it's only God the Son with whom salvation is concerned. The cross of Christ was/is necessary for us to be saved as it's the means by which we are saved.
                      The means? The means for who to be saved since one is already elected to be saved therefore they will be saved by election. The cross really is just turned into some sort of bizzare window dressing some 4000 years later.

                      Tell me this... when were you elected?


                      Visit our new website
                      ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

                      A.W. Tozer said,
                      "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.

                      GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ProjectPeter View Post
                        The means? The means for who to be saved since one is already elected to be saved therefore they will be saved by election. The cross really is just turned into some sort of bizzare window dressing some 4000 years later.

                        Tell me this... when were you elected?
                        This will be my last post on this subject as it's ridiculous and off topic.

                        Me and you were elected before the foundation of the world. Read the Ephesians passage. And here is a nice summary from a website.

                        Our union with Christ has its roots in divine election, its basis in the redemptive work of Christ, and its actual establishment with God's people by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.


                        The whole Trinity works in salvation.

                        Now, is anybody going to discuss what the OP wants discussed?
                        sigpic

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by BrckBrln View Post
                          This will be my last post on this subject as it's ridiculous and off topic.

                          Me and you were elected before the foundation of the world. Read the Ephesians passage. And here is a nice summary from a website.

                          Our union with Christ has its roots in divine election, its basis in the redemptive work of Christ, and its actual establishment with God's people by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.


                          The whole Trinity works in salvation.

                          Now, is anybody going to discuss what the OP wants discussed?
                          So then we were saved (by election) before the foundation of the world if election really means what the Reformed group says that it means.

                          And no... it isn't ridiculous at all because it paints you into a corner where there really is no escape. It is a tremendous flaw in that doctrine.

                          Also this is part of the OP discussion because it is the election he is speaking of that we are discussing.... right?


                          Visit our new website
                          ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

                          A.W. Tozer said,
                          "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.

                          GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ProjectPeter View Post
                            Also this is part of the OP discussion because it is the election he is speaking of that we are discussing.... right?
                            Is election/foreknowledge/predestination based on forseen faith?

                            That's the OP. Is election based on foreseen faith?

                            if so, please use Scripture to support

                            if not, please use Scripture to support
                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by reformedct View Post
                              Is election/foreknowledge/predestination based on forseen faith?
                              To start I would ask you why you believe foreknowledge to be synonymous with election and predestination? Maybe that's not what you mean??

                              Part of foreknowledge is seeing faith beforehand, no?

                              Peace,
                              Joe

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