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  • Foreknowledge

    hey everyone once again im just trying to learn more about the Bible. lets try to keep it unbiased and peaceful

    Here is my question: i was looking at the word foreknew in Romans 8:29

    this is what i got in greek:

    4267. proginosko (prog-in-oce'-ko)
    From pro and ginosko; to know beforehand, i.e. Foresee -- foreknow (ordain), know (before).
    see GREEK pro
    see GREEK ginosko
    προγινώσκοντές (proginōskontes) − 2 Occurrences
    προέγνω (proegnō) − 2 Occurrences

    προεγνωσμένου (proegnōsmenou) − 1 Occurrence






    my question is how do we know if Paul simply meant to know, or if he meant to ordain?



    also, since every word in the Bible was inspired by God, should we take into account the word knew and how it functioned in the OT? for example Adam knew Eve and in Amos 3 God says to Israel only you have i known



    or should we only translate considering the words in the NT?



    i ask this because the meaning of this word weighs greatly on how i view and worship God. If it means He chose to love me it is more intimate than just if he knew about my actions.

    also it seems that whenever the word for foreknowledge is used in the NT it refers to a personal knowing of someone, not just a foreknowing of future events



    any suggestions?

  • #2
    I've studied Greek for a while now and I believe that the word does accurately translate into foreknow. I am going to look it up when I get back home and I'll try to get a better answer for you.
    Matthew 10:39
    He that finds his life shall lose it: and he that loses his life for my sake shall find it.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by reformedct View Post
      hey everyone once again im just trying to learn more about the Bible. lets try to keep it unbiased and peaceful

      Here is my question: i was looking at the word foreknew in Romans 8:29

      this is what i got in greek:

      4267. proginosko (prog-in-oce'-ko)

      From pro and ginosko; to know beforehand, i.e. Foresee -- foreknow (ordain), know (before).
      see GREEK pro
      see GREEK ginosko
      προγινώσκοντές (proginōskontes) − 2 Occurrences
      προέγνω (proegnō) − 2 Occurrences

      προεγνωσμένου (proegnōsmenou) − 1 Occurrence






      my question is how do we know if Paul simply meant to know, or if he meant to ordain?



      also, since every word in the Bible was inspired by God, should we take into account the word knew and how it functioned in the OT? for example Adam knew Eve and in Amos 3 God says to Israel only you have i known



      or should we only translate considering the words in the NT?



      i ask this because the meaning of this word weighs greatly on how i view and worship God. If it means He chose to love me it is more intimate than just if he knew about my actions.

      also it seems that whenever the word for foreknowledge is used in the NT it refers to a personal knowing of someone, not just a foreknowing of future events



      any suggestions?
      The word foreknow,or the Greek word "proginosko" simply means to know before. While it can mean in an intimate way, it has absolutely "nothing" to do with ordaining or predestining.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
        The word foreknow,or the Greek word "proginosko" simply means to know before. While it can mean in an intimate way, it has absolutely "nothing" to do with ordaining or predestining.
        when i looked it up it says that it can also indeed mean ordain

        thats why i opened this thread. how do we know that it only means knowing before, especially when it refers to God? how do we know that it does not mean ordain? im not saying your wrong because i dont know for sure at this point. according to the above definition, it can indeed mean ordain, so im trying to figure out how do we know which definition we should go with? i think this particular form of the word is only found twice in the Bible and both times it refers to God

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by reformedct View Post
          when i looked it up it says that it can also indeed mean ordain

          thats why i opened this thread. how do we know that it only means knowing before, especially when it refers to God? how do we know that it does not mean ordain? im not saying your wrong because i dont know for sure at this point. according to the above definition, it can indeed mean ordain, so im trying to figure out how do we know which definition we should go with? i think this particular form of the word is only found twice in the Bible and both times it refers to God
          OK, apparently I was wrong. It appears that there are some that give ordain as a definition. Therefore the definition will have to be determined by context. So, let's look at predestined,

          Thayer’s Greek Definitions

          G4309 προορίζω proorizō Thayer Definition: 1) to predetermine, decide beforehand 2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity 3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand

          Since predestined means to pre-ordain, it seems that to define proginosko as ordain would be redundant, not to metion it would not be in keeping with the context. Also Luke uses this same word to mean to knw before, and he is not speaking of God,

          Acts 26:4-5 ( KJV ) 4My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; 5Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

          Comment


          • #6
            also just a sidenote, as i said earlier, throughout the OT the word "know" when used by God often refers to a personal, intimate knowing.

            yes, i see agree that foreknown can also simply mean to know beforehand. or to know from a long time past. but actually, in context of romans 8, with predestination, calling, etc, i am currently leaning toward the meaning of ordain, that foreknown may mean an intimate ordaining.

            i could be wrong though im not acting like i know for sure. lol i wish God would have used a different word. no disrespect to God lol

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't understand at all how even the concept of "knowing intimately" can possible be understood as ordaining or causing.

              My wife knows me intimately. She knows that if there is (a) a Dr. Pepper and (b) a Diet Coke in the fridge, that I am always, without fail, going to choose the Dr. Pepper.

              But that doesn't mean she ordained me to take the DP.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by RabbiKnife View Post
                I don't understand at all how even the concept of "knowing intimately" can possible be understood as ordaining or causing.

                My wife knows me intimately. She knows that if there is (a) a Dr. Pepper and (b) a Diet Coke in the fridge, that I am always, without fail, going to choose the Dr. Pepper.

                But that doesn't mean she ordained me to take the DP.
                by knowing intimately i was meaning a choosing to have intimate relationship.

                as i said i could be wrong, but as i said earlier, this specific word foreknew, can be translated as simply knowing or it could indeed be ordain. of course all u reformed think its ordained and other would say simply know.

                but what i am trying to find is how exactly do we determine which definition is accurate? i myself am not even sure of this yet

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by reformedct View Post
                  hey everyone once again im just trying to learn more about the Bible. lets try to keep it unbiased and peaceful

                  Here is my question: i was looking at the word foreknew in Romans 8:29

                  this is what i got in greek:

                  4267. proginosko (prog-in-oce'-ko)

                  From pro and ginosko; to know beforehand, i.e. Foresee -- foreknow (ordain), know (before).
                  see GREEK pro
                  see GREEK ginosko
                  προγινώσκοντές (proginōskontes) − 2 Occurrences
                  προέγνω (proegnō) − 2 Occurrences

                  προεγνωσμένου (proegnōsmenou) − 1 Occurrence






                  my question is how do we know if Paul simply meant to know, or if he meant to ordain?



                  also, since every word in the Bible was inspired by God, should we take into account the word knew and how it functioned in the OT? for example Adam knew Eve and in Amos 3 God says to Israel only you have i known



                  or should we only translate considering the words in the NT?



                  i ask this because the meaning of this word weighs greatly on how i view and worship God. If it means He chose to love me it is more intimate than just if he knew about my actions.

                  also it seems that whenever the word for foreknowledge is used in the NT it refers to a personal knowing of someone, not just a foreknowing of future events





                  any suggestions?
                  I can't give you the original greek definition, but what I can give you is the what's posted in my head regarding knowing what God's love is, and knowing what it isn't despite any knowledge one possesses regarding the meaning of words.


                  The Parable of the Good Samaritan Luke 10:25-37

                  On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. Teacher, he asked, what must I do to inherit eternal life? What is written in the Law? He replied. How do you read it? He answered: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' You have answered correctly, Jesus replied. Do this and you will live. But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, And who is my neighbor? In reply Jesus said: A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver [coins] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.' Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers? The expert in the law replied, The one who had mercy on him. Jesus told him, Go and do likewise.



                  So despite one's knowledge..or lack thereof..I think the first step one must make in having a relationship with God is showing mercy and compassion to one's brother...or simply put..;love one another. One shall inherit eternal life if they are able to follow this simple command which summarizes all of the commands given by God through his son.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by reformedct View Post
                    but what i am trying to find is how exactly do we determine which definition is accurate? i myself am not even sure of this yet
                    One thing, of the 22 translations I just checked none of them used the word ordained. What does that tell you considering the wealth of knowledge and study that must have gone into all that.

                    Second, no where does it say God does not foreknow all people, saved and unsaved. All the lead up and all the therefores in Romans so far has been leading up what Paul is expressing in the second half of chapter 8, a specific group of people is being focused on here. Spirit filled people. This group of people He foreknew......
                    To consider,
                    Joe

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Excuse any jumbled up wording above...I had to go through and make some html edits...hope you understood what was meant...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by RabbiKnife View Post
                        I don't understand at all how even the concept of "knowing intimately" can possible be understood as ordaining or causing.

                        My wife knows me intimately. She knows that if there is (a) a Dr. Pepper and (b) a Diet Coke in the fridge, that I am always, without fail, going to choose the Dr. Pepper.

                        But that doesn't mean she ordained me to take the DP.

                        Please consider that if your wife bought both the Dr. Pepper and Diet Coke knowing you always pick Dr. Pepper, by her purchase, wouldn't she then have ordained you to take the DP?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Walstib View Post
                          One thing, of the 22 translations I just checked none of them used the word ordained. What does that tell you considering the wealth of knowledge and study that must have gone into all that.

                          Second, no where does it say God does not foreknow all people, saved and unsaved. All the lead up and all the therefores in Romans so far has been leading up what Paul is expressing in the second half of chapter 8, a specific group of people is being focused on here. Spirit filled people. This group of people He foreknew......

                          To consider,
                          Joe
                          thanks,

                          i know you have studied this more than i have; do you think the implication of love is also in the word foreknew? because i know throughout the OT when the word used for knowing is said it can many times refer to an intimate loving or specific relationship. For example Adam knew Eve and she bore a son.

                          is there some sort of connection there? im leaning to think that foreknowledge also implies some type of loving.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by RabbiKnife View Post
                            I don't understand at all how even the concept of "knowing intimately" can possible be understood as ordaining or causing.

                            My wife knows me intimately. She knows that if there is (a) a Dr. Pepper and (b) a Diet Coke in the fridge, that I am always, without fail, going to choose the Dr. Pepper.

                            But that doesn't mean she ordained me to take the DP.
                            I think that means that you're wife loves you..specifically demonstrating that despite her foreknowledge of what was in da fridge, she put your needs above her own...greater love has no man than this, that he gives his life for his friends. Remember while we were his enemies, Christ died for us.

                            God bless

                            Edit: Or to simplify..God foreknew mankind was destined to destruction based on Adam's sin, and sent his son to die in our place. Grace.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by reformedct View Post
                              If it means He chose to love me it is more intimate than just if he knew about my actions.

                              Hello reformedct,


                              He chose to love you, He loved you first.


                              1 John 4:19

                              19 We love him, because he first loved us.
                              KJV


                              God is personal and wants a personal relationship. True love is personal. God wants your true personal love. God wants all of our true love. We were made for his pleasure.

                              Rev 4:11

                              11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
                              KJV


                              Bless you,
                              Love Fountain

                              Comment

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