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  • A change of belief...

    Thanks to Brandplucked, I have changed what I once believed.

    I believed that God desired that every man come to repentance so that He may have mercy on them all. Since we know not all come to repentance and that repentance is given by God, then it stands to reason that God's will and God's desires are two seperate things.

    Yet, completely contradicting the above statement...

    Romans 9:18
    Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

    God has mercy on whoever He wants to have mercy. If one does not have mercy from God, it is because God did not want to have mercy on that one.

    Therefore, God, is willing that all of the elect come to repentance. God desires all the elect to come to repentance. God does not desire that every man come to repentance.

    God's will and God's desires are not seperate. My mistake.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
    Thanks to Brandplucked, I have changed what I once believed.

    I believed that God desired that every man come to repentance so that He may have mercy on them all. Since we know not all come to repentance and that repentance is given by God, then it stands to reason that God's will and God's desires are two seperate things.

    Yet, completely contradicting the above statement...

    Romans 9:18
    Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

    God has mercy on whoever He wants to have mercy. If one does not have mercy from God, it is because God did not want to have mercy on that one.

    Therefore, God, is willing that all of the elect come to repentance. God desires all the elect to come to repentance. God does not desire that every man come to repentance.

    God's will and God's desires are not seperate. My mistake.
    Okay, lets work your theology out logically:

    Would you bake a poop pie and be angry about how bad it tastes?
    Would you program a computer to make mistakes and be angry that the computer is wrong?
    If not, then why would God create men (the non-elect & damned, the objects of God's eternal wrath) for the sole purpose of condemning to hell?

    They who are non-elect would be doing God's will by sinning, becuase that is the reason for condemnation.
    Now, when the non-elect sinning are doing God's will, and all sin is contrary to Go'ds will, then the non-elects sins are not realy sin.
    They will be condemned for doing God's will.

    You make no sence at all in yopur theology!!!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Diolectic View Post
      Okay, lets work your theology out logically:

      Would you bake a poop pie and be angry about how bad it tastes?
      Would you program a computer to make mistakes and be angry that the computer is wrong?
      If not, then why would God create men (the non-elect & damned, the objects of God's eternal wrath) for the sole purpose of condemning to hell?

      They who are non-elect would be doing God's will by sinning, becuase that is the reason for condemnation.
      Now, when the non-elect sinning are doing God's will, and all sin is contrary to Go'ds will, then the non-elects sins are not realy sin.
      They will be condemned for doing God's will.

      You make no sence at all in yopur theology!!!
      It really is that simple.


      Visit our new website
      ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

      A.W. Tozer said,
      "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.

      GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
        Thanks to Brandplucked, I have changed what I once believed.

        I believed that God desired that every man come to repentance so that He may have mercy on them all. Since we know not all come to repentance and that repentance is given by God, then it stands to reason that God's will and God's desires are two seperate things.

        Yet, completely contradicting the above statement...

        Romans 9:18
        Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

        God has mercy on whoever He wants to have mercy. If one does not have mercy from God, it is because God did not want to have mercy on that one.

        Therefore, God, is willing that all of the elect come to repentance. God desires all the elect to come to repentance. God does not desire that every man come to repentance.

        God's will and God's desires are not seperate. My mistake.
        ... I'm very sorry that you have been attacked by a Hyper-Calvinist and he or she mess you up so badly. The very first rule in interpreting scripture is to never pull any verse out of it's context because that is how all heresy begins. Your new interpretation of Rom. 9:18 attempts to fly in the face of 2Pet. 3:9 and much other scripture. The second rule of interpreting scripture is that every verse must be seen in the light of every other scripture leaving this work you've been taught to be at fault.
        ... God bless and I hope this helps.

        Comment


        • #5
          Okay, lets work your theology out logically:
          K.

          Would you bake a poop pie and be angry about how bad it tastes?
          Nope.

          Would you program a computer to make mistakes and be angry that the computer is wrong?
          Nope.

          If not, then why would God create men (the non-elect & damned, the objects of God's eternal wrath) for the sole purpose of condemning to hell?
          Because HE'S GOD!

          They who are non-elect would be doing God's will by sinning, becuase that is the reason for condemnation.
          True.

          Now, when the non-elect sinning are doing God's will, and all sin is contrary to Go'ds will, then the non-elects sins are not realy sin.
          Show me where sin is contrary to God's will. I say it is unscriptural.

          God's will will be done. God knew Adam would sin and created him anyway.
          They will be condemned for doing God's will.

          You make no sence at all in yopur theology!!!
          Paul writes about things that are hard to understand. However, nothing I state conflicts with the Scripture.

          Notice the signature?

          I
          I
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          V

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
            God has mercy on whoever He wants to have mercy. If one does not have mercy from God, it is because God did not want to have mercy on that one.
            I think that statement makes everything we witness regarding God (including His word) arbitrary. Basically, God is arbitrary. God is not a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him and God is not a punisher of the evil. That there is nothing to be heeded in His word and that all prayer is simply vain repetition.

            I can not reconcile such thoughts about God with passages like:

            Exodus 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,

            2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

            3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

            4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

            5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

            6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

            What is a jealous God? What does God promise to those that hate Him? What does God promise to those that love Him, and keep (observe, heed, live) His commandments? Are these the words of an arbitrary God?


            Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

            33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

            34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.

            35 And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.

            Now verse 33 exhibits something else than an arbitrary God. Again in verse 35, there is a BECAUSE in the middle of the verse. Again, these are the actions of something other than an arbitrary God. God's mercy does not contradict His judgment.


            Continuing, in reference to the verse you quoted (starting at Romans 9:15 "For he saith to Moses") when God passes before Moses and shows all His goodness and proclaims Himself...

            Exodus 34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.

            6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

            7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

            What manner of God does God proclaim Himself to be?


            Are the following merely idle words of Moses?

            Deuteronomy 4:23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.

            24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

            25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:

            26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.

            27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.

            28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

            29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

            Is there nothing to heed in the above? Can God not be provoked to anger and wrath? In our sin and disobedience, is there nothing to seek? Is God arbitrary?


            Psalm 103:17 But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

            18 To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.

            Do we fear God for nought? Can God make a "promise"?


            What does all of scripture conclude?

            Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


            God Bless!
            Watchinginawe

            I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by th1bill View Post
              ... I'm very sorry that you have been attacked by a Hyper-Calvinist and he or she mess you up so badly. The very first rule in interpreting scripture is to never pull any verse out of it's context because that is how all heresy begins. Your new interpretation of Rom. 9:18 attempts to fly in the face of 2Pet. 3:9 and much other scripture. The second rule of interpreting scripture is that every verse must be seen in the light of every other scripture leaving this work you've been taught to be at fault.
              ... God bless and I hope this helps.
              Your opinion.

              My first rule is that all Scripture is profitable.
              My second rule is that Scripture confirms Scripture.
              My third rule is that if a single verse conflicts with another, then something is being read into it that shouldn't be.

              Let's look at 2 Peter 3:9 and Romans 9:18.

              The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

              Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

              So, we have God having mercy on whomever he wants, but God willing that all should have mercy?

              Who's Peter talking about when he says "not willing that any should perish"? Any man?

              He says the us, the beloved. God is not willing that any of the beloved should perish. God wills that all who are beloved come to repentance. Who can resist God's will?

              Thus, the Scriptures, which conflict only if you translate "any" as "all men" instead of "any of us", confirm each other.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
                Your opinion.

                My first rule is that all Scripture is profitable.
                My second rule is that Scripture confirms Scripture.
                My third rule is that if a single verse conflicts with another, then something is being read into it that shouldn't be.

                Let's look at 2 Peter 3:9 and Romans 9:18.

                The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

                Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

                So, we have God having mercy on whomever he wants, but God willing that all should have mercy?

                Who's Peter talking about when he says "not willing that any should perish"? Any man?

                He says the us, the beloved. God is not willing that any of the beloved should perish. God wills that all who are beloved come to repentance. Who can resist God's will?

                Thus, the Scriptures, which conflict only if you translate "any" as "all men" instead of "any of us", confirm each other.
                Why would Peter being talking about the elect if it is as you say that the elect are not going to perish anyway? According to your Calvinism doctrine... the elect cannot perish therefore there would be no need for God to be patient. They are elect therefore they are. Again... a very problematic part of that there doctrine. Both Calvin and Augustine were full of inconsistencies... it is still apparent in the followers of the doctrines they taught.


                Visit our new website
                ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

                A.W. Tozer said,
                "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.

                GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
                  Thanks to Brandplucked, I have changed what I once believed.

                  I believed that God desired that every man come to repentance so that He may have mercy on them all. Since we know not all come to repentance and that repentance is given by God, then it stands to reason that God's will and God's desires are two seperate things.

                  Yet, completely contradicting the above statement...

                  Romans 9:18
                  Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

                  God has mercy on whoever He wants to have mercy. If one does not have mercy from God, it is because God did not want to have mercy on that one.

                  Therefore, God, is willing that all of the elect come to repentance. God desires all the elect to come to repentance. God does not desire that every man come to repentance.

                  God's will and God's desires are not seperate. My mistake.
                  What in the following scripture has changed, that you would change your belief?

                  2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

                  Who do we believe?

                  Firstfruits

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ProjectPeter View Post
                    Why would Peter being talking about the elect if it is as you say that the elect are not going to perish anyway? According to your Calvinism doctrine... the elect cannot perish therefore there would be no need for God to be patient. They are elect therefore they are. Again... a very problematic part of that there doctrine. Both Calvin and Augustine were full of inconsistencies... it is still apparent in the followers of the doctrines they taught.
                    He is patient with them, waiting until His chosen time to grant them repentance.

                    What in the following scripture has changed, that you would change your belief?

                    2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

                    Who do we believe?

                    Firstfruits
                    I believe the Word of God.

                    God is longsuffering to us, the elect, the chosen. He doesn't will that any of the elect perish. He wills that all the elect comes to repentance.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
                      Your opinion.

                      My first rule is that all Scripture is profitable.
                      My second rule is that Scripture confirms Scripture.
                      My third rule is that if a single verse conflicts with another, then something is being read into it that shouldn't be.
                      ... You know, it is sad to see that you are doing the same thing all cultists do. You are attempting to build a theology on one verse and not only are you bending the clear meaning of another to conform it to your ideology, you have taken my words and twisted them into, what you wish us to believe, is a personal idea of my own. When you stated "Your opinion," you walked straight away from the truth into falsehood and began to attack and attempting to incite a fight. That is neither of God nor is it taught in the scriptures.
                      ... The first two rules I gave to you are taught and were taught to me by my instructor in Hermeneutics. Your spin on what you have termed my rule three is just, being nice, not at all the truth. Every teacher I have ever run into that teaches heresy has been, to some extent, a spin doctor. Right this moment I'm hoping that you have just been caught up in the rush of the moment and do not seriously mean the falsehood you have stated here. The perfect will of God is contained in the verse I gave you and that will is that none should perish but that all should come to repentance and be saved.
                      ... Praying that you will, in prayer, seek God's council on this matter.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        th1bill,

                        you misunderstood me and I can see how and I apologize.

                        When I said "your opinion", I meant the above quote.

                        I then followed that with MY own set of rules and not a twisted interpreation of your own.

                        I honestly did not mean for it to be taken like that and apologize once again.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          This thread is a perfect example of western philosophy and logic. Someone brought up Augustine, well add Aquinas to that list.

                          All who follow in such systematic theological attempts are going to find themselves running in circles of syllogisms. But hey, as long as Rome can keep this sort of thing going, what the heck.

                          A philosophical system isn't going to help anyone, it's an offspring of rationalism. That being the human reason is the foundation of certainty, the measure of truth, and way of knowledge.

                          Philosophy is a dead end. Eastern Christianity already dealt with it in Rome (with Greek philosophy).

                          Philosophy is characterized by conceptualization. The human intellect cannot accept reality as it is. It transposes it first into symbols and then elaborates upon the symbols. But the symbols are counterfeit figures of reality. The concepts are as distant as a picture of a fish from a real fish.

                          Living reality doesn't fit into categories of the human intellect. It is a condition above reason. Philosophy is an attempt to transpose the suprarational into rational.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
                            Thanks to Brandplucked, I have changed what I once believed.

                            I believed that God desired that every man come to repentance so that He may have mercy on them all. Since we know not all come to repentance and that repentance is given by God, then it stands to reason that God's will and God's desires are two seperate things.

                            Yet, completely contradicting the above statement...

                            Romans 9:18
                            Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

                            God has mercy on whoever He wants to have mercy. If one does not have mercy from God, it is because God did not want to have mercy on that one.

                            Therefore, God, is willing that all of the elect come to repentance. God desires all the elect to come to repentance. God does not desire that every man come to repentance.

                            God's will and God's desires are not seperate. My mistake.
                            Don't change your belief Yukerboy. We don't really "know" anything.

                            There is the trinitarian moral understanding which involves the subject of 'grace'.
                            Don't be fooled by Calvinisms methodology ( The branch of logic that deals with the general principles of the formation of knowledge).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Teke View Post
                              Don't change your belief Yukerboy. We don't really "know" anything.

                              There is the trinitarian moral understanding which involves the subject of 'grace'.
                              Don't be fooled by Calvinisms methodology ( The branch of logic that deals with the general principles of the formation of knowledge).
                              We don't know anything. I agree.

                              But then, Calvin, who I disagree with almost as much as Wesley, couldn't be known to be wrong, correct?

                              Comment

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