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  • Predestination

    I'm quite new on the forum. So I apologise if this subject has been discussed here recently.

    Can someone please give me some thoughts, viewpoints, Scripture etc. on the doctrine of predestination? Will appreciate.

  • #2
    This is the Westminster Confession, chapter 3.

    3:1 God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass (Rom_9:15, Rom_9:18; Rom_11:33; Eph_1:11; Heb_6:17): yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin (Jam_1:13, Jam_1:17; 1Jo_1:5), nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established (Pro_16:33; Mat_17:12; Joh_19:11; Act_2:23; Act_4:27, Act_4:28).

    3:2 Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions (Mat_11:21, Mat_11:23; Act_15:18; 1Sa_23:11, 1Sa_23:12), yet hath He not decreed any thing because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions (Rom_9:11, Rom_9:13, Rom_9:16, Rom_9:18).
    What is thy only comfort in life and death?

    That I with body and soul, both in life and death, am not my own, but belong unto my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ; who, with his precious blood, has fully satisfied for all my sins, and delivered me from all the power of the devil; and so preserves me that without the will of my heavenly Father, not a hair can fall from my head; yea, that all things must be subservient to my salvation, and therefore, by his Holy Spirit, He also assures me of eternal life, and makes me sincerely willing and ready, henceforth, to live unto him.

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi SemperReformanda
      Originally posted by SemperReformanda View Post
      This is the Westminster Confession, chapter 3.

      3:1 God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass (Rom_9:15, Rom_9:18; Rom_11:33; Eph_1:11; Heb_6:17): yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin (Jam_1:13, Jam_1:17; 1Jo_1:5), nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established (Pro_16:33; Mat_17:12; Joh_19:11; Act_2:23; Act_4:27, Act_4:28).

      3:2 Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions (Mat_11:21, Mat_11:23; Act_15:18; 1Sa_23:11, 1Sa_23:12), yet hath He not decreed any thing because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions (Rom_9:11, Rom_9:13, Rom_9:16, Rom_9:18).
      So, basically, God knows what people are going to do, but doesn't force them to do it??

      Comment


      • #4
        I think such subjects are and indeed should be above our small human heads

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
          Hi SemperReformanda


          So, basically, God knows what people are going to do, but doesn't force them to do it??
          God knows what people are going to do, because in an eternity past he ordained that they would do it. However, this doesn't mean that man is not responsible for his actions, and also doesn't mean that God has done any violence to the will of man.

          One of the great mysteries of the Bible is the idea of compatibilism, the reconciliation between God's sovereign will and man's will. It is something clear in Scripture, but the answer will not be known until the kingdom comes, maybe not even then!
          What is thy only comfort in life and death?

          That I with body and soul, both in life and death, am not my own, but belong unto my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ; who, with his precious blood, has fully satisfied for all my sins, and delivered me from all the power of the devil; and so preserves me that without the will of my heavenly Father, not a hair can fall from my head; yea, that all things must be subservient to my salvation, and therefore, by his Holy Spirit, He also assures me of eternal life, and makes me sincerely willing and ready, henceforth, to live unto him.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
            Hi SemperReformanda


            So, basically, God knows what people are going to do, but doesn't force them to do it??
            Originally posted by SemperReformanda View Post
            God knows what people are going to do, because in an eternity past he ordained that they would do it. However, this doesn't mean that man is not responsible for his actions, and also doesn't mean that God has done any violence to the will of man.

            One of the great mysteries of the Bible is the idea of compatibilism, the reconciliation between God's sovereign will and man's will. It is something clear in Scripture, but the answer will not be known until the kingdom comes, maybe not even then!

            I hate to say it, but this thread contains a fair amount of calvinistic philosophical gobbly-gook. It is so sad that so many think this is biblical understanding at its best. If God ordained it, then he is responsible for it, and this includes sin. In its "confessions" calvinism claims that God controls all without being responsible for all. What a bunch of philosophical gobbly-gook. There is another way to understand predestination. And if calvinism is correct in its view, then God Himself predestined me to believe something different, and not only that different thing, but to believe that calvinism is itself a crock, which I do! I believe that God allows us to believe what we want, and that calvinism is not at all true, but is rather a distortion of Christianity.

            Bandit

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Bandit View Post
              I hate to say it, but this thread contains a fair amount of calvinistic philosophical gobbly-gook. It is so sad that so many think this is biblical understanding at its best. If God ordained it, then he is responsible for it, and this includes sin. In its "confessions" calvinism claims that God controls all without being responsible for all. What a bunch of philosophical gobbly-gook. There is another way to understand predestination. And if calvinism is correct in its view, then God Himself predestined me to believe something different, and not only that different thing, but to believe that calvinism is itself a crock, which I do! I believe that God allows us to believe what we want, and that calvinism is not at all true, but is rather a distortion of Christianity.

              Bandit
              Please deal with the Scripture I have presented in my original post before making insulting comments about what I believe.

              EDIT: And might I add, you are making a lot of unverified philosophical assertions for someone who claims that "Calvinists" spout off "philosophical gobbly-gook (sic)".
              What is thy only comfort in life and death?

              That I with body and soul, both in life and death, am not my own, but belong unto my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ; who, with his precious blood, has fully satisfied for all my sins, and delivered me from all the power of the devil; and so preserves me that without the will of my heavenly Father, not a hair can fall from my head; yea, that all things must be subservient to my salvation, and therefore, by his Holy Spirit, He also assures me of eternal life, and makes me sincerely willing and ready, henceforth, to live unto him.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by SemperReformanda View Post
                God knows what people are going to do, because in an eternity past he ordained that they would do it. However, this doesn't mean that man is not responsible for his actions, and also doesn't mean that God has done any violence to the will of man.

                One of the great mysteries of the Bible is the idea of compatibilism, the reconciliation between God's sovereign will and man's will. It is something clear in Scripture, but the answer will not be known until the kingdom comes, maybe not even then!
                What may appear to be gobbly-gook to some... is beautiful, glorious, liberating truth glorifying God the Father through the Lord Jesus Christ!... to others. (Like me.) Very much appreciated your clear statement of such profound mysteries.

                My simple answer: God is Love. God's sovereign will, most ultimately, is the power of Love at work in our lives. And who could resist such Love? When truly felt, known, and experienced... and opens one's eyes?

                To know Jesus is to love Him. We love God because He first loved us.

                Great post.

                Love in Christ,

                js

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Gideon88 View Post
                  I'm quite new on the forum. So I apologise if this subject has been discussed here recently.

                  Can someone please give me some thoughts, viewpoints, Scripture etc. on the doctrine of predestination? Will appreciate.
                  Ephesians 1:9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillmentóto bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. 11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

                  God has predestined to bring all things in Heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. We have been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will. God is actively working by Love, by His very own Spirit, to bring us to Christ according to His own plan, purpose, His will.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I've rarely touched the subject of "predestination". After all, if you believe in it (or not) what is there really to discuss? I mean, if our "plans" are already laid out, we don't know what they are, so how does this make a difference? You can discuss the concept until you are blue in the face and what have you accomplished?

                    Some people use the concept of predestination as an excuse not to witness. They feel that if God is going to call someone He will do it whether they witness or not. Well guess what? People who believe this have been predestined to be a non-witness and basically useless to building God's Kingdom :rolleyes. So God knows who will work for the Kingdom and who will sit back and let others reach and teach.

                    Since I don't know God's plan for me, I forge ahead looking to be in the center of His will.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SemperReformanda View Post
                      Please deal with the Scripture I have presented in my original post before making insulting comments about what I believe.

                      EDIT: And might I add, you are making a lot of unverified philosophical assertions for someone who claims that "Calvinists" spout off "philosophical gobbly-gook (sic)".


                      Hello,

                      You know there are many more scriptures than the select few you mentioned. By emphasizing what it thinks it sees in select sets of verses, while neglecting (or reinterpreting into irrelevance) the rest of scripture, many groups (and many of them cults) have claimed many different things from the bible. Calvinism is no different. It wants to emphasize certain sets of verses (often at the expense of local context) while at the same time ignoring a vast body of other passages.

                      But letís go back to the philosophy of calvinism and my earlier response for a moment. If what you quoted previously from the westminister confession is true (that "God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass"), then God ordained not only my disbelief of calvinism, but He also ordained my previous response, as He ordained this and all responses to come. And if that is true, then God surly ordained your dislike of my ordained comments. It would seem to me that you are at an ordained impasse: I have been predestined from eternity past to believe and to say things which you were ordained from eternity past to disbelieve and to find insulting. Funny how God works, isnít it? He then is responsible for the wrong belief system to which I was ordained, since what I think I believe was actually chosen by Him and not myself. (And besides, who am I to resist God?) But on the other hand, if I am right and calvinism is not correct, then I have chosen the correct view of scripture in this regard while you have chosen (of your own will, I might add) the wrong one. So who is right?

                      May I suggest that there are many, many scriptures which just donít fit easily into the calvinist paradigm. And the truth of scripture, whatever it is, is best found by considering all that the bible has to say, and not just the relatively few selected sections which calvinism prefers. So, rather than limit our discussion to your selected proof-texts, I would rather that all of scripture be discussed. What we would find is that there are many passages which do not support your position, and some (perhaps as many as you think support calvinism) which are contrary to it.

                      Gideon88 asked for some thoughts and viewpoints concerning predestination. It is simply not the case that the reformed view of predestination (calvinism) is the only view of predestination. Calvinism has some fundamental premises, which it then claims are not only supported, but taught by scripture. But many persons (including myself) would claim that such premises are in conflict with a great many other passages, so that such premises are not really biblical (since they conflict with these other portions of scripture). I just hope Gideon88 and others are willing think outside the calvinist box.

                      Bandit

                      P.S. It is not my intention to offense and insult, but to stir up and provoke thought. But then, if calvinism is correct, then it is not I who offends and insults, but the Spirit who works within me to stir up and provoke for whatever purpose He might have, which God only knows.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Well, you begin by refusing to even engage on Biblical grounds. Secondly, you set up a straw-man of reformed theology by associating it with fatalism. You are not arguing with any Calvinism I believe in.

                        I believe you are going to be held responsible for your disbelief in God's sovereignty in predestination, which God has foreordained for the good of His elect (Rom 8:28).

                        I will not respond to any more of your posts until you decide to put away the strawman, and engage with me Biblically. And no, saying "there are plenty of verses that disagree with you" is not enough. I am calling, show me your cards.
                        What is thy only comfort in life and death?

                        That I with body and soul, both in life and death, am not my own, but belong unto my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ; who, with his precious blood, has fully satisfied for all my sins, and delivered me from all the power of the devil; and so preserves me that without the will of my heavenly Father, not a hair can fall from my head; yea, that all things must be subservient to my salvation, and therefore, by his Holy Spirit, He also assures me of eternal life, and makes me sincerely willing and ready, henceforth, to live unto him.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          [quote]
                          Originally posted by kejonn View Post
                          I've rarely touched the subject of "predestination". After all, if you believe in it (or not) what is there really to discuss? I mean, if our "plans" are already laid out, we don't know what they are, so how does this make a difference? You can discuss the concept until you are blue in the face and what have you accomplished?
                          Predestination gives comfort and peace because God, who is good, is in ultimate power sovereignly. We know that God works all things together for good to those who love the Lord. It is a comfort and peace to know that God, who is Love, is working in a manner that cannot be thwarted for our ultimate good. It does matter in that respect... and produces, in my experience at least, fruits of the Spirit... and a big sigh of relief.



                          Some people use the concept of predestination as an excuse not to witness. They feel that if God is going to call someone He will do it whether they witness or not. Well guess what? People who believe this have been predestined to be a non-witness and basically useless to building God's Kingdom :rolleyes. So God knows who will work for the Kingdom and who will sit back and let others reach and teach.
                          Fatalism can be a wrong response in the flesh, I'd agree, to the truth of God's ultimate grace and sovereignty. How we respond and react to grace and truth in the flesh doesn't change the truth... or the beneficial fruit and effects of truth known and walked in by the Spirit.

                          Since I don't know God's plan for me, I forge ahead looking to be in the center of His will.
                          Amen. I can take comfort in knowing God knows His plan for me:

                          Jeremiah 29:11
                          For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

                          Predestination, by sincere conviction of the Spirit, is not fatalism... but rather is comfort, peace, faith, and hope inspiring courage, trust, and confidence in God and His ultimate plans for our prosperity, our good, our hope, and our future. To me, it's really quite basic to my Christian faith in God. My vision of God is not limited by my willingness, ability, and sufficiency to reach Him... but rather His willingness, ability, and sufficiency to reach me.

                          I've left the driving in good hands. And am free of many baseless fears as the result. My God cannot get any bigger in that I'm believing He is sovereign and good and in charge of all things. Now, if He can get bigger and better in my heart and understanding.. . because there is something basic, and foundational, that I've missed... I want to know! And I'm ready to change my beliefs on the basis of scripture.

                          God bless,

                          js

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            P.S. It is not my intention to offense and insult, but to stir up and provoke thought. But then, if calvinism is correct, then it is not I who offends and insults, but the Spirit who works within me to stir up and provoke for whatever purpose He might have, which God only knows.
                            [/quote]

                            Dear brother,

                            I am neither offended nor insulted (nor, literally, a Calvinist) though I believe in predestination and God's absolute sovereignty... which is good news!!... at least as I see it.

                            Now, if these aspects of Calvinism are correct that you are stirred up about, then it would be your own sinful nature raging against God's sovereign rule in rebellion of His authority as God. And God, in His infinite grace and love.... by His very own Spirit, would be "stepping back"... and giving you space to repent. When God "steps in"... to restrain you... then grant you the gift of revelation, faith in His sovereign grace and goodness, and repentance... then, dear brother, you shall change. Until then, but by the grace of God... we'd say the same things having the same sinful nature (if these aspects of Calvinism are true).

                            Praise God that He loves us all just the same... and knows our heart in Christ... and is of such great mercy. He sees us all in Christ... who are in Christ... and holds nothing against us... even as we rail against His rule and reign over us... by His Love. We're forgiven. Someday, we will all believe, understand, and submit fully in and to Jesus Christ. Until then... our God of grace... the God of all grace... is longsuffering towards us giving us space to repent. God is not willing that any should perish but that all would come to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

                            If a person doesn't believe something is loving... how can they receive it peacefully? I guess maybe I might possibly understand why if you see it as you see it, you'd respond as you have.

                            Love in Christ,

                            js

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'm going to be perfectly honest and state that when it comes to things such as predestination and such, it's just way above my head and too much for me to comprehend at this point. Maybe the Lord will reveal something to me someday in regards to this, but until then . . . well, whatever. I'm not going to concern myself with it to tell the truth. I'm just going to continue with preaching Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I'm just thankful that the Lord has me along for the ride and has decided that He would like to use me a little bit.
                              "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

                              -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

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