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  • Where do we go when we die - created from ETC thread

    Originally posted by Kahtar View Post
    Just curious. How is Christ able to gather His elect that are in heaven if they have not previously risen there?
    Well excuse me for butting in here, but this was the first post I wanted to respond to in this thread. So, I'm coming in here late, and going back a few days... but maybe I have an answer. The question Kahtar asks goes back to a deeper theological question:

    Where do we go when we die?

    The simplest answer Paul gives is with Jesus. However, Paul taught that to beginners later in his ministry. I think Paul learned to "KISS" - to Keep It Simple (Stupid).

    Paul's earliest letters were more detailed and more eschatological. However, in his letters first to the Thessalonians and then to the Corinthians, we see that discussing deep issues causes confusion.

    Moreover, Paul's simple answer, which so many Christians cling feverently, goes against what Jesus said in John 14:2 - that He was coming back for the Disciples (who all died eventually) and when He did - then He would take "us" to where He was going. So looking at that verse, we aren't with Jesus until such time as He returns.

    This fits right along with what Paul taught earlier to the Thessalonians and Corinthians: the resurrection of the Dead in Christ.

    So on a superficial level, it looks like Paul is saying two things and they both can't be right. However, I can reconcile the two differing versions of what Paul says when I look at Paul using the KISS principle with beginners. The essential truth is all who go to Paradise will be with Jesus in the end for the Millennium, which is longer than their lives, and furthermore for all eternity after that. So why confuse the beginners with all the details of eschatology? They're having enough problem applying the basic Gospel message in daily living - no sense in telling them there's a waiting period before the payoff.

    __________________________________________________ _____

    This selective resurrection follows a pattern given four times in the Bible of two resurrections: the first just for the (spiritually) Living (who are physically dead) and the second for both the Living and the (spiritually) Dead who have both passed away (as in "dead as a doorknob).

    So the gathering from Heaven is the same as John 5:24-25 (one of the four times two resurrections are mentioned).

    If we're not in Heaven with Jesus how is it that we're in Heaven without Him?

    I think that is because Heaven is layered, or multi-faceted, and I got this from something Paul wrote, what Jesus revealed to John, and what Jesus said.
    - Paul spoke about someone who visited the "third" Heaven. Why did he specify "third?

    - John, who was transported to the presence of the Father in His Temple in Heaven, saw a "second" Heaven where the martyred Saints awaited God's revenge upon the wicked who killed them. John only sees them when the floor, which is like glass, becomes transparent. When John sees them, they are not brought out of there, but told to wait. The fifth Seal is not finished when it is opened... And from the martyred Saints point-of-view they have the original glass ceiling!

    - And Jesus told us about the story of Lazarus. It's not a parable because Jesus used a named individual. And it's funny that in all the Bible, of all the people who are raised from death - no one tells us what the life after this one is like. The only description we have is from Jesus of Paradise and Hades separated by a great gulf (the abyss?).

    Indeed, when Jesus died, He told the thief on His right that they'd be in Paradise that day. I think Paradise is where the dead "rest" until they are called up by Jesus to the third Heaven of God's presence where Jesus is now.
    So I layer Heaven.

    Third Heaven: God the Father's presence
    Second Heaven: right beneath the Altar in God's Temple in Heaven.
    First Heaven: Paradise, where the Dead in Christ rest until called on the Day of the Lord.

    On the Day of the Lord (with its signature Sun/moon/star event) the Dead in Christ are resurrected from Paradise (1Th 4:16 & Mt 24:31) and then Jesus comes with them on the clouds (1Th 3:13 - an observer-true description of one who is standing on the earth) to rapture those who are still alive and are left (1Th 4:17) after the Great Tribulation (Mt 24:22) and then delivers them (like the wheat of Mt 13:30) to the barn of Heaven as the Great Multitude! (Rev 7:14)

    Mark

  • #2
    I totally agree with the "we go to paradise" view. I just completed a study on hadees a while back and found out some very interesting things. Hadees isn't hell. It is a place for disembodied spirits.

    In the retelling of Lazurus and the rich man, there is a gulf between them. Something to keep them separate and the side that Lazurus is in is called Abraham's bosom.

    So, in all honesty, the only answer I could come up with is that we are temporarily placed in paradise, if we die before Christ returns. Abraham's bosom is the place of Covenant.

    Steph
    2 Cor 4:4 For the god of this world has blinded the unbelievers' minds [that they should not discern the truth], preventing them from seeing the illuminating light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ (the Messiah), Who is the Image {and} Likeness of God. AMP

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Teleiosis View Post
      Well excuse me for butting in here, but this was the first post I wanted to respond to in this thread. So, I'm coming in here late, and going back a few days... but maybe I have an answer. The question Kahtar asks goes back to a deeper theological question:

      Where do we go when we die?

      The simplest answer Paul gives is with Jesus. However, Paul taught that to beginners later in his ministry. I think Paul learned to "KISS" - to Keep It Simple (Stupid).

      Paul's earliest letters were more detailed and more eschatological. However, in his letters first to the Thessalonians and then to the Corinthians, we see that discussing deep issues causes confusion.

      Moreover, Paul's simple answer, which so many Christians cling feverently, goes against what Jesus said in John 14:2 - that He was coming back for the Disciples (who all died eventually) and when He did - then He would take "us" to where He was going. So looking at that verse, we aren't with Jesus until such time as He returns.

      This fits right along with what Paul taught earlier to the Thessalonians and Corinthians: the resurrection of the Dead in Christ.

      So on a superficial level, it looks like Paul is saying two things and they both can't be right. However, I can reconcile the two differing versions of what Paul says when I look at Paul using the KISS principle with beginners. The essential truth is all who go to Paradise will be with Jesus in the end for the Millennium, which is longer than their lives, and furthermore for all eternity after that. So why confuse the beginners with all the details of eschatology? They're having enough problem applying the basic Gospel message in daily living - no sense in telling them there's a waiting period before the payoff.

      __________________________________________________ _____

      This selective resurrection follows a pattern given four times in the Bible of two resurrections: the first just for the (spiritually) Living (who are physically dead) and the second for both the Living and the (spiritually) Dead who have both passed away (as in "dead as a doorknob).

      So the gathering from Heaven is the same as John 5:24-25 (one of the four times two resurrections are mentioned).

      If we're not in Heaven with Jesus how is it that we're in Heaven without Him?

      I think that is because Heaven is layered, or multi-faceted, and I got this from something Paul wrote, what Jesus revealed to John, and what Jesus said.
      - Paul spoke about someone who visited the "third" Heaven. Why did he specify "third?

      - John, who was transported to the presence of the Father in His Temple in Heaven, saw a "second" Heaven where the martyred Saints awaited God's revenge upon the wicked who killed them. John only sees them when the floor, which is like glass, becomes transparent. When John sees them, they are not brought out of there, but told to wait. The fifth Seal is not finished when it is opened... And from the martyred Saints point-of-view they have the original glass ceiling!

      - And Jesus told us about the story of Lazarus. It's not a parable because Jesus used a named individual. And it's funny that in all the Bible, of all the people who are raised from death - no one tells us what the life after this one is like. The only description we have is from Jesus of Paradise and Hades separated by a great gulf (the abyss?).

      Indeed, when Jesus died, He told the thief on His right that they'd be in Paradise that day. I think Paradise is where the dead "rest" until they are called up by Jesus to the third Heaven of God's presence where Jesus is now.
      So I layer Heaven.

      Third Heaven: God the Father's presence
      Second Heaven: right beneath the Altar in God's Temple in Heaven.
      First Heaven: Paradise, where the Dead in Christ rest until called on the Day of the Lord.

      On the Day of the Lord (with its signature Sun/moon/star event) the Dead in Christ are resurrected from Paradise (1Th 4:16 & Mt 24:31) and then Jesus comes with them on the clouds (1Th 3:13 - an observer-true description of one who is standing on the earth) to rapture those who are still alive and are left (1Th 4:17) after the Great Tribulation (Mt 24:22) and then delivers them (like the wheat of Mt 13:30) to the barn of Heaven as the Great Multitude! (Rev 7:14)

      Mark

      2Co 5:6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. :7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

      When I die, I'll be seeing the Lord to be forever with Him, thats how I read it. Jesus also promises us to always be with us and us with Him, and thats in this life, so why should I wonder for one second if He will also be with me and me with Him when I leave this life.

      The Bible simply does not say that we are "resting" anywhere in Paradise, it says that we will be with Him.

      Third heaven just means heaven, not the clouds, not the stars, but Heaven.


      sigpic

      Comment


      • #4
        Very nice, and if you want to believe that then that's your choice. I can show you a view, I can't make you see.

        However, you're going to have to reconcile 2Co 5:6 with 1Co 15:21
        For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
        And 15:42
        So will it be with the resurrection of the dead.
        And 1Th 4:16
        For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
        These verses go into detail as to what happens to those of us who have died normal deaths.

        And from where is it that this happens?
        JN 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
        And what about this?
        Jn 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
        If you want a case of competing Bible verses my friend, there are more to suggest that we are not whisked away to a single Heaven with Jesus when we die normal deaths.

        So the question remains: where do we go when we die?

        I suggest that the Dead in Christ rest -as Calvin so convincingly argues against "sleep" - is Paradise: a place of rest where there is water (Spirit) and Saints (Abraham).

        This is a realm of Heaven so that Jesus' words in Mt 24:31 and the other Synoptic Gospels truthfully attests.

        Furthermore, as to your assertion that nowhere in the Bible does it say we are resting in Paradise, I suggest you read Hebrews 4 and then tell me what "rest" we are going to enter into...

        So it is not up to me to convince you, but for you to reconcile all the differing Bible verses referencing the resurrection of the dead.

        R.I.P. is an apt phrase for any Christian tombstone, and it is not from some piece of dirt that the Dead in Christ are called, but where the soul goes. I can predict that you will not see old interned bodies rising up from the earth on the Day of the Lord if you camp out in a cemetery when that Day comes...

        Mark

        Comment


        • #5
          Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
          6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

          I'm not sure who is right in this debate, but I ask both parties to give their opinion on Rev 6. The souls of the slain are under the altar, and seem to be conscious.

          Comment


          • #6
            Those who are martyred are special, and they have a special holding place.

            They are very, very close to being with God, however, they are not quite there. Like I said, John looks at them through the floor. They inturn, look at God's Temple in Heaven through their "glass" ceiling...

            Notice they are not asleep. That was Calvin's argument. They are fully aware of what happened, that some time has passed, and that they will be avenged by God. The point of consciousness can support "rest" but not "sleep." "Sleep" is a euphemism for death and not what will happen to those who have passed away before this time.

            Notice too that they're like the proverbial kids in the backseat - "When are we going to get there?" And God tells them in a little while... Meanwhile, their number is not quite right yet.

            This Seal is opened up before the Great Tribulation is up on the Day of the Lord. That can be determined by the linear nature of the Seal chronology and the specific and unique marker of the Day of the Lord which is included in the sixth Seal: the Sun/moon/star event. Exactly when in conjunction with the one 'seven' is imprecise because we have no specific or unique event to tie it to. The opening of the fifth Seal just happens before the Day of the Lord. It could come about before the one 'seven' begins, during the first half oppression of the Saints by the anti-Christ, the midpoint abomination of the talking image of him, or during the Great Tribulation when many of the Elect (Christians, not "Tribulation Saints") will undergo their "Daniel moment" and have to decide to worship the beast or die.

            I know one thing: the last two martyrs to complete the number are the Two Witnesses, and they are not called up, as I conclude from my studies, until the end of the one 'seven.'

            In Rev 19-20, it is only after Armageddon (which coincides with the end of the one 'seven') that those martyrs we see in with the opening of the fifth Seal become alive like the Great Multitude before them and join the former in the third Heaven of God's presence in the Temple of the Father.

            It is only at this time, when all who are selected (Elect) are alive that John declares the First Resurrection (which is selective calling only the spiritually living from the dead) complete.

            Mark

            Comment


            • #7
              These post were a derail of an existing thread in ETC, so this thread was created here in BC.


              sigpic

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Teleiosis View Post

                Third Heaven: God the Father's presence
                Second Heaven: right beneath the Altar in God's Temple in Heaven.
                First Heaven: Paradise, where the Dead in Christ rest until called on the Day of the Lord.


                Mark
                Problem. Paradise is not in the First Heaven.

                2 Corinthians 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
                Clearly, Paradise is the Third Heaven as declared by Paul in the passage above.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Yes, Paul does use "paradise" interchangeably with "heaven," however, I don't think he was trying to set the matter right as to how the dimensions beyond our natural world are ordered.

                  The Paradise Jesus described in Luke 17 is nothing like what John describes in Revelation chapters four and five.

                  The real problem with saying paradise as defined by Jesus is the same as the third heaven (as I order them) that John describes is that where are all the Christians?

                  John, one, has a writing kit (we find that out in Revelation 10:4) and two, he is an excellent reporter. He numbers everything he sees in Heaven but no mention of a great body of believers occurs until the Great Multitude is delivered (by Jesus on the Day of the Lord) in the sequence-of-events which transpire after the sixth Seal is broken!

                  So if we were to say as you have that paradise = heaven and the first that I have ordered is the same as the third... why is it that Jesus has to come and call out the Dead in Christ so they can be with Him as John 5:24-25 and 14:2-3 says?

                  Why are the Elect called from the ends of Heaven in Mt 24:31?

                  What I propose is a confluence of everything where the dimensions past this one where our souls reside away from the natural world of our three dimensions of space and a fourth of time is that all are heavenly, but different as to locale in these other dimensions.

                  Thus, we can say that heaven is paradise and paradise is heaven in a general sense, but when pressed we can differentiate the location of Paradise as told by Jesus to us in Luke as a separate domain than the Court of the Father in the Temple.

                  This preserves all equations that both Jesus and Paul make, yet solves the riddle as to why Jesus has to call the Dead in Christ out so as to be with Him and then come with Him to gather the rest of the Elect who haven't yet succumbed to the Great Tribulation on the Day of the Lord as indicated by Mt 24:29.

                  Mark

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Paradise is mentioned only three times in the Word of God.

                    The Revelation account describes it as 'the paradise of God.' Since we know that God resides in the third heaven, we can safely say Paul was speaking of a man that was caught up into the third heaven just as Scripture declares... into paradise, the paradise of God.

                    In Luke, when Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise, He was not lying. One must take into account that although Jesus body went in the tomb that day and did not come out of that tomb until the first day of the week, Jesus more than likely was not speaking of a physical day but rather a spiritual day. God's Word declares that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.

                    That being said, I believe Jesus was speaking of a spiritual day and that He indeed was speaking of the same paradise found in 2 Corinthians and the same paradise in Revelation... the paradise of God.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Teleiosis View Post
                      Well excuse me for butting in here, but this was the first post I wanted to respond to in this thread. So, I'm coming in here late, and going back a few days... but maybe I have an answer. The question Kahtar asks goes back to a deeper theological question:

                      Where do we go when we die?

                      The simplest answer Paul gives is with Jesus. However, Paul taught that to beginners later in his ministry. I think Paul learned to "KISS" - to Keep It Simple (Stupid).

                      Paul's earliest letters were more detailed and more eschatological. However, in his letters first to the Thessalonians and then to the Corinthians, we see that discussing deep issues causes confusion.

                      Moreover, Paul's simple answer, which so many Christians cling feverently, goes against what Jesus said in John 14:2 - that He was coming back for the Disciples (who all died eventually) and when He did - then He would take "us" to where He was going. So looking at that verse, we aren't with Jesus until such time as He returns.

                      This fits right along with what Paul taught earlier to the Thessalonians and Corinthians: the resurrection of the Dead in Christ.

                      So on a superficial level, it looks like Paul is saying two things and they both can't be right. However, I can reconcile the two differing versions of what Paul says when I look at Paul using the KISS principle with beginners. The essential truth is all who go to Paradise will be with Jesus in the end for the Millennium, which is longer than their lives, and furthermore for all eternity after that. So why confuse the beginners with all the details of eschatology? They're having enough problem applying the basic Gospel message in daily living - no sense in telling them there's a waiting period before the payoff.

                      __________________________________________________ _____

                      This selective resurrection follows a pattern given four times in the Bible of two resurrections: the first just for the (spiritually) Living (who are physically dead) and the second for both the Living and the (spiritually) Dead who have both passed away (as in "dead as a doorknob).

                      So the gathering from Heaven is the same as John 5:24-25 (one of the four times two resurrections are mentioned).

                      If we're not in Heaven with Jesus how is it that we're in Heaven without Him?

                      I think that is because Heaven is layered, or multi-faceted, and I got this from something Paul wrote, what Jesus revealed to John, and what Jesus said.
                      - Paul spoke about someone who visited the "third" Heaven. Why did he specify "third?

                      - John, who was transported to the presence of the Father in His Temple in Heaven, saw a "second" Heaven where the martyred Saints awaited God's revenge upon the wicked who killed them. John only sees them when the floor, which is like glass, becomes transparent. When John sees them, they are not brought out of there, but told to wait. The fifth Seal is not finished when it is opened... And from the martyred Saints point-of-view they have the original glass ceiling!

                      - And Jesus told us about the story of Lazarus. It's not a parable because Jesus used a named individual. And it's funny that in all the Bible, of all the people who are raised from death - no one tells us what the life after this one is like. The only description we have is from Jesus of Paradise and Hades separated by a great gulf (the abyss?).

                      Indeed, when Jesus died, He told the thief on His right that they'd be in Paradise that day. I think Paradise is where the dead "rest" until they are called up by Jesus to the third Heaven of God's presence where Jesus is now.
                      So I layer Heaven.

                      Third Heaven: God the Father's presence
                      Second Heaven: right beneath the Altar in God's Temple in Heaven.
                      First Heaven: Paradise, where the Dead in Christ rest until called on the Day of the Lord.

                      On the Day of the Lord (with its signature Sun/moon/star event) the Dead in Christ are resurrected from Paradise (1Th 4:16 & Mt 24:31) and then Jesus comes with them on the clouds (1Th 3:13 - an observer-true description of one who is standing on the earth) to rapture those who are still alive and are left (1Th 4:17) after the Great Tribulation (Mt 24:22) and then delivers them (like the wheat of Mt 13:30) to the barn of Heaven as the Great Multitude! (Rev 7:14)

                      Mark

                      Mark,

                      You are on the right track, however, it is not that heaven is layered. Hades is in the earth, it is the abode of the dead. There you find Abraham's bosom and the place of torment. You are correct that Jesus told the disciples, He would return for them, they await Him in Abraham's bosom. All souls go to hades to await the resurrection, Consider,


                      John 3:13 ( KJV ) 13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


                      Acts 2:34 ( KJV ) 34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,


                      1 Samuel 28:13-15 ( KJV ) 13And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.


                      15And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed;



                      We see that none are in heaven, we see that Samuel was brought up from his rest. Also Isaiah says,



                      Isaiah 26:17-21 ( KJV ) 17Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD. 18We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. 19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.



                      20Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.




                      The early church also believed that all souls go to hades to await the resurrection. So, let's look at where hades is. As we saw, Samuel came up from beneath the earth, and Isaiah says the people will enter their chambers, and,



                      Isaiah 26:19 ( KJV ) 19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.



                      Paul tells us that the dead is in Christ shall rise first.



                      Peter tells us that Christ preached to the spirits in prison,



                      1 Peter 3:18-20 ( KJV ) 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.



                      These were those who were in Noah's day so they were dead, however Peter goes on to tell us,




                      1 Peter 4:4-6 ( KJV ) 4Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: 5Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.



                      We know when Christ died on the cross that He spent three days in the heart of the earth, We know He went to hades because David and Peter tell us so,




                      Acts 2:30-31 ( KJV ) 30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.



                      So, I think it is abundantly clear that Abraham's bosom is in the earth. Having said that, Jesus told the thief he would be with Him in paradise that day, Paul also mentions being caught up to paradise, and Jesus speaks of the paradise of God. This seems to be a problem. However, if we understand paradise as an adjective and not a noun there is no problem. If we understand paradise as describing a place rather than the name of a place, everything fits nicely. Jesus said to the thief "today you will be with me in paradise" if we understand the word paradise as describing Abraham's bosom, there is no difficulty, just as the paradise of God, the Garden of Eden is described as paradise, I believe Jesus statement was a reference to the garden of Eden, because in Revelation when Jesus references the paradise of God, He has just spoken of the tree of life. The same thing with Paul, paradise as a description of the third heaven.




                      Regarding Revelation 6, the souls under the altar, apparently the altar represents the earth and the souls of the martyrs are in effect in Abraham's bosom.

                      Here is a quote from Victorinus, around 304 AD. a bishop in Syria and a martyr.

                      Title : The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 7

                      "And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain."] He relates that he saw under the altar of God, that is, under the earth, the souls of them that were slain. For both heaven and earth are called God’s altar, as saith the law, commanding in the symbolical form of the truth two altars to be made,—a golden one within, and a brazen one without. But we perceive that the golden altar is thus called heaven, by the testimony that our Lord bears to it; for He says, "When thou bringest thy gift to the altar" (assuredly our gifts are the prayers which we offer), "and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar." (Matt. 5:23, 34) Assuredly prayers ascend to heaven. Therefore heaven is understood to be the golden altar which was within; for the priests also were accustomed to enter once in the year—as they who had the anointing—to the golden altar, the Holy Spirit signifying that Christ should do this once for all. As the golden altar is acknowledged to be heaven, so also by the brazen altar is understood the earth, under which is the Hades,—a region withdrawn from punishments and fires, and a place of repose for the saints, wherein indeed the righteous are seen and heard by the wicked, but they cannot be carried across to them. He who sees all things would have us to know that these saints, therefore—that is, the souls of the slain—are asking for vengeance for their blood, that is, of their body, from those that dwell upon the earth; but because in the last time, moreover, the reward of the saints will be perpetual, and the condemnation of the wicked shall come, it was told them to wait. And for a solace to their body, there were given unto each of them white robes. They received, says he, white robes, that is, the gift of the Holy Spirit.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Cool!!! I had started doing the research on this and lost all of the files and stuff when my puter went down.

                        Thanks!

                        Steph
                        2 Cor 4:4 For the god of this world has blinded the unbelievers' minds [that they should not discern the truth], preventing them from seeing the illuminating light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ (the Messiah), Who is the Image {and} Likeness of God. AMP

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The Word of God nowhere states that the Garden of Eden was, is, or ever will be the paradise of God. The Bible clearly tells us that paradise is in the third heaven.

                          I'll stick with the Word of God and believe that Paradise was, is and always has been in the third heaven.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by CommanderRobey View Post
                            The Word of God nowhere states that the Garden of Eden was, is, or ever will be the paradise of God. The Bible clearly tells us that paradise is in the third heaven.

                            I'll stick with the Word of God and believe that Paradise was, is and always has been in the third heaven.
                            Believe whatever you want, that doesn't make it so. It's just coincidence that the tree of life is in there huh?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Notice the Eden is on earth but Heaven is not. In Revelation, we read that the tree of life is on either side of the river that flows from God's throne.

                              On one side of the river, the tree of life on earth in the midst of the garden of Eden.

                              On the other side of the river, the tree of life in heaven.

                              Clearly the tree of life spans across space from heaven to earth. Paradise is in Heaven as the Word of God declares. Nowhere in the Word of God is paradise said to be in the earth.

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