Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Wretched Sinner or Beautiful Child of God?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Wretched Sinner or Beautiful Child of God?

    I would like to share something with you and ask for your input. I am in a small group within our church that has some very strong, mature Christians in it. Just recently, however, a couple of them have referred to the fact that they are "horrible, wretched, nasty sinners" saved by the grace of God. Of course I believe that - that is not what I'm hung up on. They say that they are these horrible sinners using the present tense. It is one thing to describe themselves as such prior to receiving the gift of salvation - that describes all people who have not repented and placed their live in God's hands. And I also realize that even after we are saved, we will continue to sin. 1John 1:8-10 clearly states that. What is bothering me is the idea that they are continuing to describe themselves in that way, when I believe that they are new creations, just as 2Cor. 5:17 states. I can't put my finger on exactly why it bothers me so much. I sort of feel like it's somehow disrespectful to see yourself that way after you've been covered by the blood of Jesus. After all, when God sees me after salvation, he sees me as righteous, because of that very same blood.

    I hope this makes sense - I look forward to your comments...

  • #2
    Originally posted by gracesosweet View Post
    I would like to share something with you and ask for your input. I am in a small group within our church that has some very strong, mature Christians in it. Just recently, however, a couple of them have referred to the fact that they are "horrible, wretched, nasty sinners" saved by the grace of God. Of course I believe that - that is not what I'm hung up on. They say that they are these horrible sinners using the present tense. It is one thing to describe themselves as such prior to receiving the gift of salvation - that describes all people who have not repented and placed their live in God's hands. And I also realize that even after we are saved, we will continue to sin. 1John 1:8-10 clearly states that. What is bothering me is the idea that they are continuing to describe themselves in that way, when I believe that they are new creations, just as 2Cor. 5:17 states. I can't put my finger on exactly why it bothers me so much. I sort of feel like it's somehow disrespectful to see yourself that way after you've been covered by the blood of Jesus. After all, when God sees me after salvation, he sees me as righteous, because of that very same blood.

    I hope this makes sense - I look forward to your comments...
    Hey Grace. Well all I can do is speak from my personal experience. Sometimes, despite the fact that we walk in grace, despite the fact that we know we're loved and renewed - theres just an emptiness sometimes that one knows can only be filled by being with the Lord. Perhaps that's what the couple is feeling. A longing a desire to be with God, because they at times realize their state of helplessness and unhappiness has to do with not totally being in His presence.

    It's kind of like when the woman with the scented perfume went to the feet of Jesus and annointed his feet with her perfume and wiped his feet with her tears. She knew that Jesus's kindness and Love and Grace knew no bounds - but she just felt so much guilt and sadness over being able to give him so little and being so wretched. I guess the Love of God, more so than anything is what makes us cry out "O wretched man/woman I am" sometimes.....it's so awsome that you just can't do anything but look at yourself and what you do with disgust. Thanks be to God that he is loving, and understands our thoughts and motivations.

    Much Love for ya -

    Stephen

    Comment


    • #3
      I totally see what you are saying, Stephen, but these are people that just IMMERSE themselves in the Word and time with God. Obviously, I can't know their heart - only God knows that - but I really don't think they are experiencing any emptiness or anything like that. They are strong, joyful, bold Christians, but they will tell you in a minute that they are miserable sinners, and I just don't agree with that view.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by gracesosweet View Post
        I totally see what you are saying, Stephen, but these are people that just IMMERSE themselves in the Word and time with God. Obviously, I can't know their heart - only God knows that - but I really don't think they are experiencing any emptiness or anything like that. They are strong, joyful, bold Christians, but they will tell you in a minute that they are miserable sinners, and I just don't agree with that view.
        It's probably the fact that they are SO HUMBLE that they in no way could see themselves other than lowly sinners saved by grace. They truly understand their position in Christ and are not prideful. A person that reflects on how much they have been saved from is a person I want to be around.

        It's not a contradiction of terms or an indication that they are living double-lives as a super-sinners..... I believe they are a model of humility and meekness that should make us all take notice - like you did.

        Comment


        • #5
          Personally, I think many times such statements are either false humility or ignorance of what the Word says about the children of God.

          You hear Christians all the time say that they are nothing but a bunch of sinners saved by grace.

          I prefer to say that I'm a saint who occasionally may sin. I'm not worthless. I'm not just a filthy sinner. I'm a saint. I'm a child of God. That's who I am, and I'm not going to take on a false sense of humility and call myself something that the Word of God disagrees with.
          "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

          -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
            Personally, I think many times such statements are either false humility or ignorance of what the Word says about the children of God.

            You hear Christians all the time say that they are nothing but a bunch of sinners saved by grace.

            I prefer to say that I'm a saint who occasionally may sin. I'm not worthless. I'm not just a filthy sinner. I'm a saint. I'm a child of God. That's who I am, and I'm not going to take on a false sense of humility and call myself something that the Word of God disagrees with.
            Then you will disagree with what the apostle Paul had to say about himself:

            "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am (present tense) chief. " I Tim 1:15

            "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Romans 7:23,24

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Sold Out View Post
              Then you will disagree with what the apostle Paul had to say about himself:

              "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am (present tense) chief. " I Tim 1:15

              "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Romans 7:23,24
              I don't disagree at all. Jesus did come to save sinners. However, now that I'm saved, I'm a child of God. I'm no longer a child of darkness, but I'm a child of light.

              And you bolded the question in Romans 7, but you omitted the answer. Paul is delivered from being a sinner by the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, he's not just a worthless ol' sinner anymore. He's now a child of God and he's been given victory over sin. So, no longer is he just an old rotten sinner.
              "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

              -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by gracesosweet View Post
                I would like to share something with you and ask for your input. I am in a small group within our church that has some very strong, mature Christians in it. Just recently, however, a couple of them have referred to the fact that they are "horrible, wretched, nasty sinners" saved by the grace of God. Of course I believe that - that is not what I'm hung up on. They say that they are these horrible sinners using the present tense. It is one thing to describe themselves as such prior to receiving the gift of salvation - that describes all people who have not repented and placed their live in God's hands. And I also realize that even after we are saved, we will continue to sin. 1John 1:8-10 clearly states that. What is bothering me is the idea that they are continuing to describe themselves in that way, when I believe that they are new creations, just as 2Cor. 5:17 states. I can't put my finger on exactly why it bothers me so much. I sort of feel like it's somehow disrespectful to see yourself that way after you've been covered by the blood of Jesus. After all, when God sees me after salvation, he sees me as righteous, because of that very same blood.

                I hope this makes sense - I look forward to your comments...
                We do not find our identity in our sin. I agree with you 100%. We are saints, children of God, cleansed. How can I call unclean that which God has cleansed?

                I am a new creature. I am as righteous as God himself is. Do I sin? Yea. But that is not who I am. It is what I do, sometimes. But I am in Him. I am a new creature in Him. I am righteous. I am a saint.

                Time to go run around the building.

                The Holy Spirit will convict his children of righteousness. Once they realize they are as righteous as he is, it is a freeing moment indeed.
                Matt 9:13
                13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                NASU

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
                  I don't disagree at all. Jesus did come to save sinners. However, now that I'm saved, I'm a child of God. I'm no longer a child of darkness, but I'm a child of light.

                  And you bolded the question in Romans 7, but you omitted the answer. Paul is delivered from being a sinner by the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, he's not just a worthless ol' sinner anymore. He's now a child of God and he's been given victory over sin. So, no longer is he just an old rotten sinner.
                  I agree that we are children of God, but we still battle the sin nature daily, which Paul clearly demonstrates in his writings. While in this physical fleshly body....we are still sinners, just saved ones.

                  The point I was trying to make is that these folks the OP referenced are not confused about who they are in Christ...they are just humble. We should all be so humble.

                  "But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." James 4:6

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    We are dead to sin. How can I consider myself a sinner when I am dead to sin?
                    Matt 9:13
                    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                    NASU

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                      We are dead to sin. How can I consider myself a sinner when I am dead to sin?
                      Exactly! What's so humble about saying something about yourself that isn't biblically accurate in regards to who we are in Christ?
                      "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

                      -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                        We are dead to sin. How can I consider myself a sinner when I am dead to sin?
                        Do you still sin?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sold Out View Post
                          Do you still sin?
                          As has already been shown in another thread, a born-again Christian committing a sin doesn't change who they are in Christ. When are the same regardless of whether or not we mess up and sin sometimes.
                          "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

                          -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
                            As has already been shown in another thread, a born-again Christian committing a sin doesn't change who they are in Christ. When are the same regardless of whether or not we mess up and sin sometimes.
                            I know that......

                            The point I'm making is that we are still SINNERS even though we are saved. Our eternal destiny is sure, but the fact remains that as long as we are in the body, we are still sinners and will sin until the day we die.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sold Out View Post
                              Do you still sin?
                              Occasionally. But that is not how I identify myself. Nor am I taught to identify myself that way from scriptures. I am as righteous as God is and that is taught over and over in scriptures for those that are new in Him.

                              Put another way, are you identified with Christ? Are you in Him? If so, does He sin?
                              Matt 9:13
                              13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                              NASU

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X