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Melchizedek - if you believe that he was Jesus, tell me why!

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  • Melchizedek - if you believe that he was Jesus, tell me why!

    In class we were put into groups and given topics that we have to debate about, and my group has to defend that Melchizedek was a man who foreshadowed Christ, and we'll be rebutting a group who is defending the stance that Melchizedek was the pre-incarnate Christ. I already believe that Melchizedek was just a man who was a picture of Christ, but what are some arguments that Melchizedek was actually Jesus, much like many of "the Angel of the Lord" passages were? If you believe that Melchizedek was Jesus, would you mind posting your reasons, and giving me the opportunity to give rebuttals to your thoughts?
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

  • #2
    Originally posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
    In class we were put into groups and given topics that we have to debate about, and my group has to defend that Melchizedek was a man who foreshadowed Christ, and we'll be rebutting a group who is defending the stance that Melchizedek was the pre-incarnate Christ. I already believe that Melchizedek was just a man who was a picture of Christ, but what are some arguments that Melchizedek was actually Jesus, much like many of "the Angel of the Lord" passages were? If you believe that Melchizedek was Jesus, would you mind posting your reasons, and giving me the opportunity to give rebuttals to your thoughts?
    I'm personally a bit divided about this, myself, so I've heard both arguements..

    Argument A: the Hebrews author refers to him as a man without beginning or end, no genealogy and no past. Since only God or Christ could be truly that, he must be Christ.

    Counter-point; the Hebrews author could be saying that his genealogy is unknown, since his only point is that Melchy is NOT a Levite.

    Arguement B: Abraham paid tithes to him; tithes go to God.

    Counter-point; not exclusively. Nu 18:26 "Speak to the Levites and say to them: 'When you receive from the Israelites the tithe I give you as your inheritance, you must present a tenth of that tithe as the Lord's offering.'" I.e., God had the people give a tithe to the priests, for their support. If Melchy was a priest, then he was also entitled to a tithe.

    Argument 3: There was nobody else following God; how could he be a priest of God at this time without being Jesus?

    Counterpoint: Jethro of Midian was also called a priest of God Most High. There were men around described as such and treated as such. We are told nothing of God's relationship to them, and how it came to be, or what they believed. It doesn't mean God didn't have followers other than Abraham...

    There are many, many more, but that should get the ball rolling for now. Plenty to think about there.
    One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father over us all.

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi astrongerthanhe

      His parents may not be recorded, but his descendant may be. He was Melchi-Zedek (king-of-righteousness), king of Salem. When Joshua came into the land the king of Jerusalem was Adoni Zedek (lord-of-righteousness). Coincidence?

      God bless
      S

      Comment


      • #4
        Basically, the argument is that they have too much in common to be 'simply' alike

        Characteristics of Melchizedek in Scripture
        1. He was King of Salem (Genesis 14:18)
        2. He gave bread and wine to Abraham (Genesis 14:18)
        3. He was Priest of God Most High (Genesis 14:18)
        4. He blessed Abram (Genesis 14:19)
        5. Abram gave him ‘of everything’ (Genesis 14:20)
        6. He is a Priest forever (Psalm 110:4)
        7. His name means King of Righteousness (Hebrews 7:2)
        8. King of Salem means King of Peace (Hebrews 7:2)
        9. He was without genealogy (Hebrews 7:3)
        10. He was without beginning or end (Hebrews 7:3)
        11. He is greater than Abraham (Hebrews 7:7)
        12. He is greater than a Levitical Priest (Hebrews 7:9)
        13. He has an indestructibe life (Hebrews 7:16-17)

        Characteristics of Jesus that correspond
        1. He is the King of Jerusalem (Matthew 27:11)
        2. He gave bread and wine to Abraham’s children (Matthew 26:26-28)
        3. He is the High Priest of God (Hebrews 5:10)
        4. He blesses Abraham’s descendants (Galatians 3:29)
        5. Abraham’s descendants give Him everything (Romans 12:1-2)
        6. He is a Priest forever, has an indestructible life (Hebrews 7:24)
        7. He is the King of Righteousness (Matthew 3:15)
        8. He is the King of Peace (Acts 10:36)
        9. He was born of the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35)
        10. He is without beginning or end (Revelation 21:6)
        11. He is greater than Abraham (John 8:52-58)
        12. He is greater than a Levitical Priest (Hebrew 7:22)
        13. He has an indestructible life (Hebrews 7:24)
        The Matthew Never Knew
        The Knew Kingdom

        Comment


        • #5
          Yeah, it seems that the arguments made for Melchizedek being the pre-incarnate Christ is found in Hebrews 7:1-16. Our group stumbled upon a life threatening blow to the argument that Melchizedek is too much like Jesus to be separate individuals: in Heb. 7:3, when we're told that Melchizedek was "made like the Son of God," that Greek word "like" is only used here in the entire NT, and it can only mean to compare two different things. In other words, the author of Hebrews chose this word specifically in order to do away with any confusion as to Melchizedek being a created person, as opposed to Uncreated. Besides, the entire flow of the book of Hebrews is that people, things, and ordinances are compared to Jesus, and explaining why Jesus is better than all of that.

          Concerning Melchizedek being "without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life," I personally believe that this is because Melchizedek was a Gentile. I've heard of testimonies about Jews who were shown Matthew ch.1 (Jesus' genealogy) and became converted! There's something about a family tree that is important to their culture. We're told in Gen. 5 who begot who at what age and how old they lived to be, but never for those outside of God's chosen people are we told both of these things.

          Also, Gen. 14 is very important to study when approaching this question of who Melchizedek was. Throughout the entire chapter we're told that this king from this place joined with so and so from such and such a place, and they attacked this group of kings from these certain places. We're supposed to understand that these kings were with armies of people, and that they were from well known places. Then enters Melchizedek, king of Salem. He's not just one person that comes out of nowhere holding bread and wine. No, he has an entire army with him! He's to be understood just as the other kings in Gen. 14 are understood.

          But what I'd really love is to talk with someone who has come to the conclusion that Melchizedek was pre-incarnate Jesus. Not because it's a salvation issue or because I want to convert the person to what I think, but because I want to familiarize myself with the other side's reasons. Thanks so much you three who have posted so far - that was greatly helpful to us!

          - luke e. leven
          analyze. synthesize. repeat.

          *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
            Our group stumbled upon a life threatening blow to the argument that Melchizedek is too much like Jesus to be separate individuals: in Heb. 7:3, when we're told that Melchizedek was "made like the Son of God," that Greek word "like" is only used here in the entire NT, and it can only mean to compare two different things.
            I also thought of the word 'like' as a blow to that side of the argument AT FIRST. But it's certainly not a death blow because there are numerous other ways of thinking about it...For one, it could simply mean that Melchizedek was a theophany 'like' Jesus was a theophany of God. Certainly they were 'different' incarnations (granting the conclusion), but they could still be the 'same' 2nd Person of the Trinity. Further, if the whole point of Hebrews is to show the greatness of Christ (which it seems to be), then why talk about Melchizedek's greatness if he wasn't Christ? In other words, I don't think the word 'like' is a life threatening blow.
            The Matthew Never Knew
            The Knew Kingdom

            Comment


            • #7
              Well, they talk about Moses' greatness.

              Also, I was wondering, if Melchizedek was a theophany (or a Christophany), would Hebrews be the only place in the NT that refers to a theophany? If so, would you consider that to be a point against Melchizedek being Jesus, as it would be uncharacteristic of the NT flow?
              analyze. synthesize. repeat.

              *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
                In class we were put into groups and given topics that we have to debate about, and my group has to defend that Melchizedek was a man who foreshadowed Christ, and we'll be rebutting a group who is defending the stance that Melchizedek was the pre-incarnate Christ. I already believe that Melchizedek was just a man who was a picture of Christ, but what are some arguments that Melchizedek was actually Jesus, much like many of "the Angel of the Lord" passages were? If you believe that Melchizedek was Jesus, would you mind posting your reasons, and giving me the opportunity to give rebuttals to your thoughts?
                Here's an old thread that may be helpful.

                Cheers
                Leigh

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi Matthew
                  Originally posted by matthew94 View Post
                  Basically, the argument is that they have too much in common to be 'simply' alike

                  Characteristics of Melchizedek in Scripture
                  1. He was King of Salem (Genesis 14:18)
                  2. He gave bread and wine to Abraham (Genesis 14:18)
                  3. He was Priest of God Most High (Genesis 14:18)
                  4. He blessed Abram (Genesis 14:19)
                  5. Abram gave him ‘of everything’ (Genesis 14:20)
                  6. He is a Priest forever (Psalm 110:4)
                  7. His name means King of Righteousness (Hebrews 7:2)
                  8. King of Salem means King of Peace (Hebrews 7:2)
                  9. He was without genealogy (Hebrews 7:3)
                  10. He was without beginning or end (Hebrews 7:3)
                  11. He is greater than Abraham (Hebrews 7:7)
                  12. He is greater than a Levitical Priest (Hebrews 7:9)
                  13. He has an indestructibe life (Hebrews 7:16-17)

                  Characteristics of Jesus that correspond
                  1. He is the King of Jerusalem (Matthew 27:11)
                  2. He gave bread and wine to Abraham’s children (Matthew 26:26-28)
                  3. He is the High Priest of God (Hebrews 5:10)
                  4. He blesses Abraham’s descendants (Galatians 3:29)
                  5. Abraham’s descendants give Him everything (Romans 12:1-2)
                  6. He is a Priest forever, has an indestructible life (Hebrews 7:24)
                  7. He is the King of Righteousness (Matthew 3:15)
                  8. He is the King of Peace (Acts 10:36)
                  9. He was born of the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35)
                  10. He is without beginning or end (Revelation 21:6)
                  11. He is greater than Abraham (John 8:52-58)
                  12. He is greater than a Levitical Priest (Hebrew 7:22)
                  13. He has an indestructible life (Hebrews 7:24)
                  We could make similar 13 point lists for Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon and Hezekiah.

                  Typology (from Greek "Adam who was a pattern" typos) is a useful and scriptural tool. We learn a lot about Christ by looking at his foreshadows in the OT. But no type is 100% true. Isaac was not really the true "Seed", David and Solomon were not really the true "Anointed" (Christos, Messiah), Hezekiah was not the true "Immanuel", Zerubbabel was not the true "Branch", and so on, these men are partial figures. Melchizedek too - Melchizedek (it seems) had descendants (Adonizedek), Melchizedek wasn't part of the Abrahamic promise, Melchizedek was presumably mortal, and was not raised from the dead (or Jesus would be secondfruits).

                  The distinction is important - a lot of rabbis argued that the Jews would have no further Messiah after Hezekiah, but all those OT men, no matter how good, could not save. Acts 4:12.

                  Further the comment in Heb7 about the former priests sacrificing for their "own sins as well as the people" has to apply to pre-Aaronic priests such as Enosh (Gen 4:26?) and Melchizedek as much as Aaron. Otherwise there is already a sinless sacrifice before the cross. This indicates that Melchizedek too was a sinner, therefore mortal, therefore as dependent on being justified by Christ's blood, and, one day, raised from the dead by Christ as Aaron.

                  God bless
                  Steven

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    We are to be kings and priests (Rev. 5:10), and it doesn't matter if we're of Jew or Gentile descent. We don't have to be from the tribe of Levi, because Jesus didn't have to be from the tribe of Levi. Jesus came in the order of Melchizedek, therefore we too in Christ are priests in the order of Melchizedek. My Gentile family line wasn't dedicated as priests, yet in Christ I am a priest - how? - in the order of Melchizedek, where having a father or mother or genealogy of priests is not a requirement, as Christ is my Father in that regard (Isa. 9:6; John 13:33) - and because by Christ I have eternal life as a priest, beginning or end of days concerning the ordained time in the Aaronic priesthood (Num. 8:23-26) is a non-issue.

                    This is the whole reason why Melchizedek is brought up in the book of Hebrews. Because in Christ I am a priest in the order of Melchizedek, I too remain a priest continually (Heb. 7:3), though my "tribe" has never been officiated as so at any altar (7:13, 14); I too am more than a mortal man (7:8), as I have been called by a Man who came according to the power of an endless life (7:16). The point is that the lesser is blessed by the greater (7:7); the Levitical priesthood (the natural) was set aside as a type, or a shadow, of the priesthood according to Christ (the heavenly).

                    The Levites were all to be in the order of Melchizedek, in that each of them were to do all of their duties not by their own strength, nor out of a prideful faith in their lineage, but by the strength and order of Jesus who was both the perfect sacrifice and the great High Priest. If Melchizedek was Jesus in the flesh (Melchizedek had to have been a man in the flesh, as per context of Gen. 14), then there would have been no need for Christ to come again, because there would have been no need for the new covenant (Heb. 7:12). Melchizedek could not have been Jesus in any form - he was a Gentile man, which alone emboldens us and stirs up our faith that in Christ (and not in Levi) we are priests forever under the new and better covenant. Amen!

                    - luke e. leven
                    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

                    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
                      Hi Matthew

                      We could make similar 13 point lists for Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon and Hezekiah.
                      We could make 13 point lists about such people, but would they be as significant as the list provided? In other words, how many of them could be called 'greater than abraham?' How many could be 'priests forever' or 'without genealogy?' Personally, I don't think he was a pre-incarnate Jesus. I just think there's good evidence on both sides, so I am open to both possibilities.

                      God bless
                      matthew
                      The Matthew Never Knew
                      The Knew Kingdom

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi M
                        Originally posted by matthew94 View Post
                        We could make 13 point lists about such people, but would they be as significant as the list provided?
                        Yes!! Melchizedek just looks easy because in this case someone (the writer to Hebrews) has already done most of the work. But I know of a youth camp where they got to 100 points of contact between David and Christ, Joseph and Christ, not that I have the lists!
                        S

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Genesis 14

                          14And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.
                          15And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.
                          16And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.
                          17And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale.
                          18And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
                          19And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: 20And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

                          Genesis 18

                          1And the LORD appeared unto him [Abraham] in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
                          2And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
                          3And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

                          Come on, people...If Melchizedek = Jesus, wouldn't Abraham have said something when he was visited by the three men on the plains of Mamre?

                          You know, something like, "Hey, aren't you that Melchizedek that I gave tithes to after rescuing Lot?"

                          Case closed.

                          (tongue firmly in cheek)
                          θεοφιλε

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by matthew94 View Post
                            how many of them could be called 'greater than abraham?'
                            John the Baptist (Matt. 11:11)!
                            analyze. synthesize. repeat.

                            *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'm not real familiar with Melchizedek and the Melchizedek priesthood yet

                              But, I am familiar with how many times Gods word refers to Christ second coming and nowhere does it mention a third coming and, If Christ was Melchizedek then Christ second coming would actually be His third coming and Gods written word doesn't mention a third coming but only a second coming.

                              I apologize if I have misunderstood the purpose of the thread.

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