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  • soul sleep (moved from Etc)

    Hi David
    Originally posted by David Taylor
    Jeff,
    If the intent of your post is to discuss the timing of the rapture, then you've come to the right place here at ETC.

    If the intent of your post is to discuss soul-sleep, then that discussion will need to be moved over to the World Religions Forum, per our board rules on that topic in section IV.
    Not in any way disagreeing with your comment, but, and maybe I'm not reading carefully, I cannot see "soul sleep" specifically mentioned on that page, so presumably it would be an area for exercising discretion.

    I'll make no bones about the fact that I myself am a fully paid up "soul sleeper" I was brought up at a CofE school, our local Alpha Course leader believes that death is sleep and the hope is resurrection, and he shares the belief of many in the Church of England including the Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams and the Bishop of Durham A.T. Wright - namely that God alone has immortality (1Tim 6:16), that death is sleep (Luke 8:52 Psalm 6:5 etc), till, in the age to come, eternal life. (1Co15:23).

    Wheras most world religions - Hindu, Buddhist, Islam, Sikhism, believe in either the immortality of the soul/spirit (nafs or ruh in Arabic, atma in Sanskrit),

    Fair enough if "soul sleep" (a misnoma, Ezekiel 13:9, but let's not be pedantic) is counted a world religion, by all means move it, no skin off my nose. The possible downside might be, however, that if it is based in Biblical exegesis and if it is believed by a broad range of Christians, then to do so might serve to give credence to other ideas in World Religions which are not necessarily so well supported in the Bible.

    Just a small suggestion, not a definite opinion, and happy either way
    God bless all, and thanks for this wonderful board
    Steven

  • #2
    "Soul Sleep" is an "unorthodox teaching" and "specific doctrine" of both #1 & #2 below; and not a Mainstream Protestant teaching. It may be discussed here in WR, not in the
    main board Protestant Christian forums.

    I. Board Policy


    This board is for an exploration of the mainstream Christian Protestant faith, and not the faith of other religions.

    V. Specific Rules

    Unorthodox teachings or discussing specific doctrines of ANY of these religions will be moved to the "World Religions" Forum:
    Teachings of ANY of these religions and discussion of specific doctrines may be discussed only in the World Religions forum
    in the interest of seeking factual representation and refuting any doctrinal differences from mainstream Protestantism:

    1. Seventh Day Adventist (SDA)
    2. Jehovah's Witnesses (JW)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
      I'll make no bones about the fact that I myself am a fully paid up "soul sleeper" I was brought up at a CofE school, our local Alpha Course leader believes that death is sleep and the hope is resurrection, and he shares the belief of many in the Church of England including the Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams and the Bishop of Durham A.T. Wright - namely that God alone has immortality (1Tim 6:16), that death is sleep (Luke 8:52 Psalm 6:5 etc), till, in the age to come, eternal life. (1Co15:23). Steven
      Wow, You've opened my eyes to some new thoughts, namely that such high ranking church officials do not hold to the idea of everyone having an immortal soul. In light of this you would think that more people would have that belief.

      Ah, well, here on this board it automatically lumps you in as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Not a bad place to be IMHO.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
        and he shares the belief of many in the Church of England including the Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams and the Bishop of Durham A.T. Wright
        As well as well known and respected evangelical anglican John Stott.

        Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
        and the hope is resurrection
        This, in my mind, has always given a powerful support to the idea of soul sleep. It puts much more of an emphasis on the hope of the resurrection, than does the idea of an ethereal existence between death and resurrection.

        Not fully convinced yet but it is a powerful point.
        WDJD - what DID Jesus do

        He died on a cross for our sin and rose from the dead,
        securing, for all who believe, eternal life and forgiveness of sin

        Toolman

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Toolman View Post
          As well as well known and respected evangelical anglican John Stott.



          This, in my mind, has always given a powerful support to the idea of soul sleep. It puts much more of an emphasis on the hope of the resurrection, than does the idea of an ethereal existence between death and resurrection.

          Not fully convinced yet but it is a powerful point.
          To me the deciding factor is what the scriptures say, rather than what any religious leader believes. I am just surprised that more people don't understand it. From start to finish the scriptures are pretty clear, the consequence of sin is death. This is what God told Adam at the outset. If this wasn't the punishment, it would be unrighteous on God's part to set out false rules and parameters. (Romans 5:12, 6:23; Gen.2:17)

          The very first lie propagated by Satan was "YOU positively will not die." (Gen. 3:4) He has been spreading it in various different forms ever since.

          What the teaching of the immortal soul does is remove the need of the resurrection. If all good people go to heaven and all bad go to hell, what is the need of a resurrection?

          Jesus remained dead for the better part of three days. Then he was resurrected, brought back to life. This took place so that all people have the opportunity to be brought back to life should they die. However if they are in actuallity still alive, but in a different form, why do they need to be resurrected?

          Hosea 13:14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction:"

          1Cor.15:56,57 "The sting producing death is sin, but the power for sin is the Law. But thanks to God, for he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!"

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by jujubea View Post
            Jesus remained dead for the better part of three days. Then he was resurrected, brought back to life.
            Jesus' body, was dead (very much asleep) for the better part of three days.

            Jesus' spirit, however, was not dead, and it returned into the hands of the Father at the death of His body on the Cross.

            The resurrection is the final triumph over sin, when the body/spirit unit is glorified and made immortal, and incorruptible.

            The resurrection is our ultimate hope, but our present hope until that time, is the assurance that noone, thing, person, grave, or even death, can separate us from our Lord and Saviour.

            Comment


            • #7
              Clarification Please

              For the purposes of clarification, would someone who purports "soul sleep" or whatever the correct terminology is, please define it in summary form, possibly with a quick couple of verses substantiating the thought?

              I've only had the briefest exposure to it and would like to know clearly what is being discussed before I comment, possibly with a foot in my mouth.

              Blessings,
              Gary

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Gary Rake View Post
                For the purposes of clarification, would someone who purports "soul sleep" or whatever the correct terminology is, please define it in summary form, possibly with a quick couple of verses substantiating the thought?

                I've only had the briefest exposure to it and would like to know clearly what is being discussed before I comment, possibly with a foot in my mouth.

                Blessings,
                Gary
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_sleep
                WDJD - what DID Jesus do

                He died on a cross for our sin and rose from the dead,
                securing, for all who believe, eternal life and forgiveness of sin

                Toolman

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                  Jesus' body, was dead (very much asleep) for the better part of three days.

                  Jesus' spirit, however, was not dead, and it returned into the hands of the Father at the death of His body on the Cross.

                  The resurrection is the final triumph over sin, when the body/spirit unit is glorified and made immortal, and incorruptible.

                  The resurrection is our ultimate hope, but our present hope until that time, is the assurance that noone, thing, person, grave, or even death, can separate us from our Lord and Saviour.

                  The life force or spirit is within every cell of a person's body. For this reason severed appendages can be reattached within certain time limits. The life force is still within those cells. When the life force or spirit is no longer in the cells, the cells die, and of course reattachment is no longer possible.


                  When a person dies there is a rather long process. Depending on the manner of death, the heart stops, activity within the major organs cease, brain function comes to an end, and last but not least the very cells of the body die.


                  When a person donates organs for transplant, the organs are kept alive. They still have the spirit or life force in them. If they did not, transplants would be impossible.


                  God is the source of life. As such, when a person dies, the life force within can be said to “go back to God”, in that, he alone has the power to restore it. It was in this sense that Jesus spirit went back to God.


                  This life force or spirit is not an intelligence, it is does not have thought. It is more like an electrical charge. That is why an electrical charge can at times bring life back to a person who's heart has stopped.


                  Prior to Jesus death, there was no hope of going to heaven. He was the first to come from heaven, and he had to prepare a way for his disciples in order that they too could go to heaven.

                  John 3:13 “Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.”

                  John 14:2,3 “In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be.”


                  Thousands upon thousands of people died prior to Jesus ransom sacrifice. These ones had no hope of going to heaven. Their spirit or life force left them. It did not actually go anywhere. Like a flame when blown out does not actually go anywhere, it is just gone. Their hope is for the resurrection, a future event.


                  Speaking of the resurrection Paul said:


                  1Corinthians 15:50 However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. 51Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed,


                  Indeed those who were dead had to await the time of the resurrection. Until that time they were “asleep in death.”. They are not in heaven, they are not in hell, they exist only in God's memory. God promises to bring them back to life.


                  The resurrection is a uniting of body and spirit the same as Adam's creation was. The body is given the life force. If there was a separate intelligence that separated from the body at death, we would be immortal already. But the scriptures are clear, we are not.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gary Rake View Post
                    For the purposes of clarification, would someone who purports "soul sleep" or whatever the correct terminology is, please define it in summary form, possibly with a quick couple of verses substantiating the thought?

                    I've only had the briefest exposure to it and would like to know clearly what is being discussed before I comment, possibly with a foot in my mouth.

                    Blessings,
                    Gary
                    Hi Gary; Here are a few.

                    Why we die.
                    Gen.2:17 “But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”

                    Rom. 5:12, 17, 19: “Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned—. ... By the trespass of the one man death ruled as king ... Through the disobedience of the one man many were constituted sinners.”

                    Romans 6:23 “For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.”

                    1Cor. 15:22: “In Adam all are dying.”

                    Where are the dead?

                    Gen. 3:19: “In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

                    Eccl. 9:10: “All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [“the grave,” KJ, ], the place to which you are going.”

                    What is the condition of the dead?

                    Eccl. 9:5: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.”

                    Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.”

                    John 11:11-14: “‘Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.’ ... Jesus said to them outspokenly: ‘Lazarus has died.’”

                    Psalm 13:3 “Do look [upon me]; answer me, O Jehovah my God. Do make my eyes shine, that I may not fall asleep in death.”

                    What God has done to correct.


                    Hosea 13:14 “I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes."


                    John 3:16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

                    Rev.21:4 “And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      This, in my mind, has always given a powerful support to the idea of soul sleep. It puts much more of an emphasis on the hope of the resurrection, than does the idea of an ethereal existence between death and resurrection.
                      Couldn't have said it better myself. In fact, it sounds like something I've said before.

                      The emphasis is (or definitely should be) resurrection, so whether you believe in an intermediate state or not is not really important. The problem is, too many preach so much about "going to Heaven," as if it was our ultimate hope, that resurrection is forgotten completely. For example, I was raised believing that the Christian hope is "to go to Heaven." But guess what? I barely knew or didn't even know at all what resurrection was until I started reading my Bible. This is a problem that needs to be fixed; I hope we can all agree on that point.

                      I'll close my post with N.T. Wright's words of wisdom:

                      "Heaven is important but it's not the end of the world: in the mainstream Christian tradition until the Platonists corrupted it, the ultimate destination is THE NEW HEAVENS AND THE NEW EARTH, which will involve an ultimate resurrection (bodily, of course) for God's people (in some versions, for all people).

                      The way the phrase 'heaven and hell' are used today implies you go straight to one or the other, ignoring the solid biblical testimony to an ultimate new creation in which heaven and earth are brought together in a great act of renewal (for those who want it, check out Ephesians 1.10, Revelation 21 and 22, Romans 8.18-27 and 1 Corinthians 15.20-28 -- though once you see this theme it's there everywhere)" (Wright, "Neither is The Final Destination").

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jujubea View Post
                        To me the deciding factor is what the scriptures say, rather than what any religious leader believes.
                        Yes. However, many people automatically associate "soul sleep" oriented doctrines with cults, ignorant of the other respectable scholars and evangelicals that subscribe also with "soul sleep" oriented doctrines. For one who believes something remotely close to a doctrine of "soul sleep" (and I put it in quotation marks because it really is a poor title to describe the doctrine Steven and I advocate) it is good to have respectable scholars and evangelicals on your side.

                        What the teaching of the immortal soul does is remove the need of the resurrection.
                        I see what you are trying to say, but I don't believe man needs to have an "immortal soul" to enter some form of a conscious intermediate state after death. If there is a conscious intermediate state, the soul would not go there. But if there is an intermediate state, who cares what "part" of the human goes there?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                          Jesus' body, was dead (very much asleep) for the better part of three days.
                          Jesus' nephesh/psyche, "soul," was in sheol/hades.
                          "Because thou wilt not leave my soul [psychen] in hell [hadou], neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" (Act 2:27).
                          Jesus' spirit, however, was not dead, and it returned into the hands of the Father at the death of His body on the Cross.
                          The ruach/pnuema, when describing the breath of life that animates the human body (cf. Gen 2:7), is not conscious.
                          "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [ruach] shall return unto God who gave it. Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity" (Ecc 12:7-8).

                          "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep" (Act 7:60).
                          N.T. Wright comments, "Death means that the body returns to the dust, and the breath to God who gave it; meaning not that an immortal part of the person goes to live with God, but that the God who breathed life's breath into human nostrils in the first place will simply withdraw it into his own possession" (The Resurrection of The Son of God, Wright 98-99).

                          The resurrection is our ultimate hope, but our present hope until that time, is the assurance that noone, thing, person, grave, or even death, can separate us from our Lord and Saviour.
                          It shouldn't be our "present hope." Our present hope should be that the God that rose Jesus, the Messiah, from the dead, so that he was not abandoned to the grave or to corruption, will one day raise us to the same glory. We await, as Paul says, the "manifestation of the sons of God" (Rom 8:19) and the "the redemption of our body" (Rom 8:23).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Saw this thread for the first time and thought I would add my agreement to those advocates of soul-sleep.
                            Two points I would like to add. Nowhere did Jesus say "I am looking forward to the day you die so we can be reunited in heaven".
                            He did say, 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
                            3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

                            He also said, 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
                            40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

                            Second point, which has been mentioned but deserves repeating, we are notm immortal. How do I know this?
                            1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

                            Immortality is something we must seek for, it is not something we have naturally.
                            Ro 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


                            PS Just because a certain belief is not mainstream, does not make it necessarily wrong. When was the last time you noticed that the 'majority' was right in everything?
                            My Bible tells me that the church that is waiting patiently and is watching diligently for Jesus to return is a 'remnant'. Mainstream? I dont think so.
                            Jeremiah 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and
                            rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by enarchay View Post
                              Yes. However, many people automatically associate "soul sleep" oriented doctrines with cults, ignorant of the other respectable scholars and evangelicals that subscribe also with "soul sleep" oriented doctrines. For one who believes something remotely close to a doctrine of "soul sleep" (and I put it in quotation marks because it really is a poor title to describe the doctrine Steven and I advocate) it is good to have respectable scholars and evangelicals on your side.
                              I've been meaning to get back to this thread for a while, been too side tracked with others. You are right Enarchay, soul sleep is not a good term for it. To be honest I had not heard it being refered to that until discussions on this site.

                              Originally posted by enarchay View Post
                              I see what you are trying to say, but I don't believe man needs to have an "immortal soul" to enter some form of a conscious intermediate state after death. If there is a conscious intermediate state, the soul would not go there. But if there is an intermediate state, who cares what "part" of the human goes there?


                              I suppose the point I am trying to make is that there is no intermediate state. "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.."(Eccl.9:5)

                              When God said the penalty was death he was telling the truth. If there was a consious intermediate state, it would prove God a liar and Satan the truthful one.

                              Comment

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