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  • #31
    Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
    Hi Paul born again
    Souls "die", men "sleep". It's only a symbolic vision, there aren't really souls under an altar in heaven.

    Besides in Greek, the verb for "rest a little longer" is also used for sleeping the sleep of the dead. See Rev14:13. And remember Moses was told to "rest" with his fathers, when he was buried. Which is why Jesus says that the "vision" of Moses and Elijah was an orama - it wasn't real.
    God bless
    Steven
    You seem to think of everything as symbolic. You seem to be saying that John the disciple can't be trusted to be writing real things down in Revelation regarding the altar.

    Jesus didn't say the Transfiguration was a vision in any of the Gospel accounts.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by NightWatchman View Post
      Jesus didn't say the Transfiguration was a vision in any of the Gospel accounts.
      He did but saying that must mean it was not a true vision or was composed of images and things not really happening is a bit of a stretch to put it very lightly.


      Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
      1Peter 3:15
      (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by NightWatchman View Post
        You seem to think of everything as symbolic. You seem to be saying that John the disciple can't be trusted to be writing real things down in Revelation regarding the altar.
        I explained the image of the alter quite well, I think. Did you read my post?

        I think people read the souls as depicted as talking (in the same way Abel's blood is depicted) and skip right over the detail about the altar, a place of blood sacrifice.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by enarchay View Post
          I explained the image of the alter quite well, I think. Did you read my post?

          I think people read the souls as depicted as talking (in the same way Abel's blood is depicted) and skip right over the detail about the altar, a place of blood sacrifice.

          Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
          Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?


          This differs quite a bit from the figure of speech of someone's blood crying out and here where we have literal words and a loud voice.


          Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

          Not only that but they are spoken back to, and are given white robes to wear, and told to rest (wait) for a little longer. These souls are clearly alive and are not bodiless so these are living people in heaven.
          1Peter 3:15
          (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

          Comment


          • #35
            Hi Nightwatchman
            Originally posted by NightWatchman View Post
            You seem to think of everything as symbolic. You seem to be saying that John the disciple can't be trusted to be writing real things down in Revelation regarding the altar.
            Why "can't be trusted"? It's not a moral issue whether someone uses symbolic language. Can Zechariah "not be trusted" to write about four horsemen? Can Daniel "not be trusted" to write of an image with a head of gold? These are symbols, prophecies, not real. Yes I'd say everything in Revelation is symbolic, unless there's very good confirmation otherwise in the Gospels or Epistles.
            Jesus didn't say the Transfiguration was a vision in any of the Gospel accounts.
            I'm afraid that he did, please see the Greek of Matt17:9.
            God bless
            Steven

            Comment


            • #36
              Hi Naphal
              Originally posted by Naphal View Post
              Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
              Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

              This differs quite a bit from the figure of speech of someone's blood crying out and here where we have literal words and a loud voice.
              But souls can't literally "cry out" any more than blood. Souls aren't literally stored under a literal altar. Is the woman in the basket in Zech 2 literal? Does the beast literally have 10 horns?

              Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

              Not only that but they are spoken back to, and are given white robes to wear, and told to rest (wait) for a little longer. These souls are clearly alive and are not bodiless so these are living people in heaven.
              How can they have literal bodies in heaven when Paul teaches the resurrection of the body? Again this is the Revelation tail wagging the dog - the other 65 books. Why should anything in any vision be literal?

              Revelation 6
              6:1 Now I watched when the (literal?) Lamb opened one of the (literal?) seven seals, and I heard one of the (literal?) four living creatures say with a voice (literally?) like thunder, “Come!” 2 And I looked, and behold, a (literal?) white horse! And its (literal?) rider had a (literal?) bow, and a (literal?) crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer.


              3 When he opened the (literal?) second seal, I heard the second (literal?) living creature say, “Come!” 4 And out came another (literal?) horse, (literally?) bright red. Its (literal?) rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that people should slay one another, and he was given a (literal?) great sword.
              5 When he opened the (literal?) third seal, I heard the (literal?) third living creature say, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a (literal?) black horse! And its (literal?) rider had a (literal?) pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures, saying, “A quart [1] of wheat for a denarius, [2] and three quarts of barley for a denarius, and do not harm the oil and wine!”
              7 When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the (literal?) fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 And I looked, and behold, a (literal?) pale horse! And its rider's name was (literally?) Death, and (literal?) Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a (literal?) fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by (literal?) wild beasts of the earth.
              9 When he opened the (literal?) fifth seal, I saw under the (literal?) altar the (literal?) souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They (literally?) cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were (literally?) each given a (literal?) white robe and told to (literally?) rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants [3] and their brothers [4] should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
              12 When he opened the (literal?) sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a g(literal?) reat earthquake, and the (literal?) sun became (literally?) black as sackcloth, the (literal?) full moon became like blood, 13 and the stars of the sky (literally?) fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. 14 The sky (literally?) vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every (literal?) mountain and (literal?) island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave [5] and free, (literally?) hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

              It's an apocalyptic vision. Not objective reality.

              God bless
              Steven

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
                Hi Naphal But souls can't literally "cry out" any more than blood.
                Of course they can. 8 souls were saved by water and we know those were 8 people. The word soul is used for many things in scripture and one usage is for a person whether human or heavenly.


                Souls aren't literally stored under a literal altar. Is the woman in the basket in Zech 2 literal? Does the beast literally have 10 horns?
                The beast's horns are explained. Rev contains literal things and symbolic. I see nothing symbolic about the souls of those that were matyred. They are alive in heaven, speak and are spoken to.


                How can they have literal bodies in heaven when Paul teaches the resurrection of the body?
                There are many different forms of resurrection. How can they wear robes if they don't have bodies?


                Why should anything in any vision be literal?
                Why would visions never be of literal things? By definition a vision is something seen, not something thought to be seen. It leans more to normally being literal than not.




                It's an apocalyptic vision. Not objective reality.

                Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

                602 apokalupsis {ap-ok-al'-oop-sis}

                from 601; TDNT - 3:563,405; n f

                AV - revelation 12, be revealed 2, to lighten + 1519 1,
                manifestation 1, coming 1, appearing 1; 18

                1) a laying bear, making naked
                2) a disclosure of truth, instruction
                2a) concerning things before unknown
                2b) used of events by which things or states or persons
                hitherto withdrawn from view are made visible to all
                3) manifestation, appearance
                1Peter 3:15
                (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

                Comment


                • #38
                  Hi Naphal
                  Originally posted by Naphal View Post
                  Of course they can. 8 souls were saved by water and we know those were 8 people. The word soul is used for many things in scripture and one usage is for a person whether human or heavenly.
                  Precisely my point - in the Bible "souls" are what happens when you add breath to dust - they are corporeal, they don't hide under altars in heaven. Noah and those other 7 souls had bodies, they were alive.

                  The beast's horns are explained. Rev contains literal things and symbolic. I see nothing symbolic about the souls of those that were matyred. They are alive in heaven, speak and are spoken to.
                  You don't think they could symbolically represent the blood of dead martyrs buried on earth sleeping until the resurrection? You're absolutely 100% certain that Rev6 is literal and Isaiah 38:18 Ps 6:5 and all the other "dead know nothing" verses from the OT are not to be taken literally? Why then does Paul in 1Co15 say "if there is no resurrection... then those that sleep have perished"?

                  There are many different forms of resurrection. How can they wear robes if they don't have bodies?
                  Perhaps because they are symbolic robes on symbolic souls under a symbolic altar in a symbolic vision . What else would symbolic souls wear?

                  Looking at a concordance there are only two forms of resurrection 1. figurative antitypical, baptism. 2. literal, a body that can eat fish and show nail marks. Paul says three times that our bodies will be like Christ's. When he comes.

                  Why would visions never be of literal things? By definition a vision is something seen, not something thought to be seen. It leans more to normally being literal than not.
                  Does it? I don't think it does. Please give me an example from the OT of something real being seen in a vision -- with the exception of future events, such as Paul seeing Ananias coming to his house.

                  Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

                  602 apokalupsis {ap-ok-al'-oop-sis}

                  from 601; TDNT - 3:563,405; n f

                  AV - revelation 12, be revealed 2, to lighten + 1519 1,
                  manifestation 1, coming 1, appearing 1; 18

                  1) a laying bear, making naked
                  2) a disclosure of truth, instruction
                  2a) concerning things before unknown
                  2b) used of events by which things or states or persons
                  hitherto withdrawn from view are made visible to all
                  3) manifestation, appearance
                  None of these say "using literal objects". Apocalypsis, then as now, in a literary sense meant an apocalyptic text - compare the many dozens of other (uninspired) Jewish apocalypses which have been preserved. Daniel itself is apocalyptic. So are parts of Zechariah.

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalyptic_literature

                  None of these books are objective journalism.
                  God bless
                  Steven

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
                    Hi Debra
                    It was a real vision of something not really there then Do you know of any other "visions" in the Bible which are straightforward seeing of real events?

                    In the NT the only vision that later turned out to be "real" was Paul seeing Ananias coming, but it was a vision of the future. The other "visions" are all events beyond the realm of normal physical reality.

                    Besides - how did Peter, James and John know who the two men Jesus was talking to were? This is in the days before photos.

                    If Christ had meant "that which you have seen", which says nothing about whether it was a vision or not, he could have done so - in fact he did in Mark and Luke. But Matthew has "vision". What you consulted, the Strongs appendix, is not a real dictionary, it just tells you how the word is used in the KJV, right or wrong. ORAMA very rarely means a normal "sight" in classical Greek, only if it is something very spectacular. In Jewish Greek, in the Septuagint, ORAMA means a supernatural vision. There are about 60 visions in the OT, most of them translated with the same Greek word ORAMA in the Greek OT, but is a single one of them "real"?

                    The bottom line is, whatever they "saw" on the mountain, Jesus said "no one has gone up into heaven" (John 3:13), so we know that Elijah and Moses are not in heaven. How could they be? They were mortal. Ps 6:5
                    God bless
                    Steven
                    Greetings Steven,

                    I have presented this argument to you before, and won't do so again here. But in the other posts you ignore how Elijah and Moses and every other Old Testament saint are NOW reigning spiritually with the Lord. They could not ascend to be with the Lord prior to the cross, but the argument has been made, and you have ignored it that after the cross they could and did ascend into heaven spiritually. Since the cross every believer upon physical death ascends spiritually to be with the Lord. I have also made the argument that Jo 3:13 speaks of a time before the cross, not after, which again you do not respond to.

                    The transfiguration is a real vision where both Elijah and Moses could be seen bodily because they had not yet ascended into heaven. It is similar to Saul calling Samuel up from the grave. If Samuel already gone into heaven then he would not have been raised up, but called to come down.

                    But, once again, this is before the cross of Christ. Those saints from the OT died in faith not having received the promise, but after the cross they too, just like every NT believer received the seal of the HS (Rev 7) enabling them to ascend unto heaven via the Spirit, spiritually.

                    Blessings,
                    RW

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Naphal View Post
                      Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
                      Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

                      This differs quite a bit from the figure of speech of someone's blood crying out and here where we have literal words and a loud voice.

                      Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

                      Not only that but they are spoken back to, and are given white robes to wear, and told to rest (wait) for a little longer. These souls are clearly alive and are not bodiless so these are living people in heaven.
                      Greetings Naphal,

                      I wondered why Rev 6 speaks of those martyred for faith as being "under the altar" if they are in heaven. I have come to believe that this language signifies not being specifically in heaven, but rather being destined as those OT saints who will go to heaven after the cross. I view these souls, also the 144,000 of Rev 7 and Rev 14 as symbolizing the Church in the OT, or the remnant saved from the OT era. We see these martyred for the faith again in Rev 20, only there they are before the throne of God.

                      Altar signifies the place of sacrifice, and since these are 'under' the altar is seems to speak as those being under the sacrificial atoning blood of the Lord. Under comes from another Greek word that means inferior (locally, of Hades):--lower. Eze 9 shows us a picture of those from the OT being marked as those who cry out to God, and then in Rev 7, just prior to the gospel going unto all the world, these same OT saints are sealed with the HS, being made alive through the Spirit thereby enabling them to ascend unto heaven after the cross.

                      All of these OT saints have physically died and gone into the grave (hell), but all of them also ascended into heaven after the cross. This is the distinction Steven3 and Enarchay fail to see. The cross changed the way the Holy Spirit operates, where He once dwelt with or among His people, He now (since the cross) dwells in them. This makes death impossible for those who are in Christ, indwelt by the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit that gives us life, and this life is eternal. Our physical bodies wear out, or become sick, old, and die, but the Spirit that has quickened our spirits to life assures everlasting, eternal, never ending life in the Spirit, and in the fullness of time everlasting, eternal, never ending life in both body and spirit.

                      Blessings,
                      RW

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Hi Roger
                        Originally posted by RogerW View Post
                        every other Old Testament saint are NOW reigning spiritually with the Lord.
                        No, I don't think so. They may "live to God" but they are still dead, and the dead cannot praise, or reign, but know nothing. Please show me the Bible reference you have in mind. The "reign" verses come after the resurrection:

                        Luke 1:33 and he will reign (future) over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”

                        1 Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then (future) at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then (future) comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

                        2 Timothy 2:12 if we endure, we will (future) also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

                        They could not ascend to be with the Lord prior to the cross, but the argument has been made, and you have ignored it that after the cross they could and did ascend into heaven spiritually. Since the cross every believer upon physical death ascends spiritually to be with the Lord.
                        Based on what evidence? If that's true why does Paul say (25 years after the ascension) "if the dead are not raised... then they are perished" (1Co15). If they are alive in heaven he's talking claptrap.



                        I have also made the argument that Jo 3:13 speaks of a time before the cross, not after, which again you do not respond to.
                        Because the only verse to support this idea is "led captivity captive" and that's clearly not what it means.
                        The transfiguration is a real vision where both Elijah and Moses could be seen bodily because they had not yet ascended into heaven. It is similar to Saul calling Samuel up from the grave. If Samuel already gone into heaven then he would not have been raised up, but called to come down.
                        Are we supposed to have faith in Christ, in his cross, in his sacrifice, in his being "firstbegotten" from the dead, or do we have faith in the 'reality' of a medium producing a ghost Saul couldn't see, and a "vision" - which like Paul's vision of Ananias could well simply be a window into the future?
                        But, once again, this is before the cross of Christ. Those saints from the OT died in faith not having received the promise, but after the cross they too, just like every NT believer received the seal of the HS (Rev 7) enabling them to ascend unto heaven via the Spirit, spiritually.
                        Sorry. I don't wish to be difficult but I need Bible evidence please.

                        Again, why does Paul say he wants to "attain to the resurrection", why does Paul show no knowledge whatsoever of souls/spirits going to heaven? Why did his pupil Clement not know that Abraham and the patriarchs are in heaven? Why did the writer to Hebrews say that Abraham and co had "not receieved what was promised" and could not do so without "us" (Heb 11:39-40). Why does the Apostles' Creed not contain any mention of heaven-going?

                        In short why does the Bible teach resurrection not heaven-going?
                        God bless
                        Steven

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by RogerW View Post
                          Greetings Naphal,

                          I wondered why Rev 6 speaks of those martyred for faith as being "under the altar" if they are in heaven. I have come to believe that this language signifies not being specifically in heaven, but rather being destined as those OT saints who will go to heaven after the cross.

                          I believe most of Rev is occurs after the cross so I can't agree with that.


                          To be under the alter just means to be worshipping before it IMO.


                          Altar signifies the place of sacrifice, and since these are 'under' the altar is seems to speak as those being under the sacrificial atoning blood of the Lord.
                          Actually it more implies that THEY were the sacrifices since their blood was shed. They are NT saints that died for the testimony of Christ.




                          Under comes from another Greek word that means inferior (locally, of Hades):--lower. Eze 9 shows us a picture of those from the OT being marked as those who cry out to God, and then in Rev 7, just prior to the gospel going unto all the world, these same OT saints are sealed with the HS, being made alive through the Spirit thereby enabling them to ascend unto heaven after the cross.

                          All of these OT saints have physically died and gone into the grave (hell), but all of them also ascended into heaven after the cross. This is the distinction Steven3 and Enarchay fail to see. The cross changed the way the Holy Spirit operates, where He once dwelt with or among His people, He now (since the cross) dwells in them. This makes death impossible for those who are in Christ, indwelt by the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit that gives us life, and this life is eternal. Our physical bodies wear out, or become sick, old, and die, but the Spirit that has quickened our spirits to life assures everlasting, eternal, never ending life in the Spirit, and in the fullness of time everlasting, eternal, never ending life in both body and spirit.
                          Thank you for that. I do not accept the Preterist views of Revelation so I disagree about this being about the OT saints. I agree with you about the power and change of the cross.
                          1Peter 3:15
                          (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Naphal View Post
                            I believe most of Rev is occurs after the cross so I can't agree with that.

                            To be under the alter just means to be worshipping before it IMO.

                            Actually it more implies that THEY were the sacrifices since their blood was shed. They are NT saints that died for the testimony of Christ.

                            Thank you for that. I do not accept the Preterist views of Revelation so I disagree about this being about the OT saints. I agree with you about the power and change of the cross.
                            Greetings Naphal,

                            I don't want to take the op to far off so I'll briefly comment on a couple things. In Rev 6 there is no testimony of Christ mentioned. The passage tells us they died for the word of God and the testimony they held. This is one of the reasons I believe these are pre-cross, or pre-Christ martyrs. But in Rev 20 where the martyrs are again mentioned it says they are beheaded for the witness of Jesus and the word of God. I believe there is no mention of Christ in Rev 6 because Christ had not yet come, so there is not yet any witness to the cross of Christ.

                            This is not what Preterists believe. Neither do I hold to a Preterist interpretation of Scripture. I also believe that our view of the book of Revelation is far too limited if we attempt to force much of the book into a time after the cross. The book is the Revelation of Jesus Christ throughout redemptive history. This redemptive history begins at creation, and the visions John is given also begin with John seeing redemptive history from the perspective of eternity past, or from God's view when making a covenant (Counsel of Peace Zech 6:13) in heaven before the world began. The book in mo repeats the same vision of an end of the OT era of law, and a beginning of the NT era of grace as time progresses. The chapters are not chronological, but of greater detail in each progressive vision.

                            One of the most powerful truths missed by those who fail to see the fulfillment of the old and the beginning of the new in Revelation is the undeniable power and strength of the cross, and grace as well as weakness in the law.

                            Blessings,
                            RW

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by RogerW View Post
                              Greetings Naphal,

                              I don't want to take the op to far off so I'll briefly comment on a couple things. In Rev 6 there is no testimony of Christ mentioned.
                              No but they do die for the testimony they held and I submit that must be the testimony of Christ. Besides, the book is the Revelation of Christ and therefore pertains to the knowledge of him.


                              The passage tells us they died for the word of God and the testimony they held. This is one of the reasons I believe these are pre-cross, or pre-Christ martyrs.
                              That would more likely point to being Martyrs in Christ not before Christ. Exactly what testimony did they die for if not for Christ?



                              But in Rev 20 where the martyrs are again mentioned it says they are beheaded for the witness of Jesus and the word of God. I believe there is no mention of Christ in Rev 6 because Christ had not yet come, so there is not yet any witness to the cross of Christ.
                              I fail to equate the lack of the name of Christ to mean they died before Christ. The entire part about dying for their testimony testifies that it is Christ related.



                              This is not what Preterists believe. Neither do I hold to a Preterist interpretation of Scripture.
                              That's well and good but that is a Preterist view of scripture.



                              I also believe that our view of the book of Revelation is far too limited if we attempt to force much of the book into a time after the cross.
                              Christ was revealed during his lifetime and of course his death. That's is what the gospel is about and that's what the Revelation of Christ pertains to. I see it as almost entirely post cross. I believe only Rev 12 that i recall addresses any time before Christ's birth and then only briefly.
                              1Peter 3:15
                              (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Actually it more implies that THEY were the sacrifices since their blood was shed. They are NT saints that died for the testimony of Christ.
                                I actually agree with your first statement. However, Andrew Perriman holds the view that these are not Christian martyrs, but pre-Christ Jewish martyrs. He points out how they make their robes white, perhaps an allusion to Christ's blood atonement for even those who lived before his death and resurrection.

                                Comment

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