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What kind of afterlife do you belive in?

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  • What kind of afterlife do you belive in?

    I have been reading through various posts on here and the two main ideas I keep getting are this:
    Soul Sleep:when you die you don't have a spirit that flys into heaven or hell,your spirit is a life force there no such thing as a conscious afterlife heaven and hell come later and the only way for you to resurrected is for god to put this life force into a new body that he will make just for you.
    Immortal Spirit:When you die you DO have a spirit that flys into heaven or hell,judgment comes right after death.
    Which one of these views do you most agree with?I agree mostly with the second one but i want to see what ever body else thinks.

  • #2
    Soul Sleep:when you die you don't have a spirit that flys into heaven or hell,your spirit is a life force there no such thing as a conscious afterlife heaven and hell come later and the only way for you to resurrected is for god to put this life force into a new body that he will make just for you.
    I advocate what many label "soul sleep," but I've explained why I think that phrase is a poor title to describe what I believe. Those who advocate a position similiar to mine, like Steven3, do in fact believe the ruach/pneuma, the "breath" or "spirit," returns to God who gave it. But we take a stance similar to N.T. Wright and do not believe the spirit is conscious; instead, the "life force," as you called it, returns to God who gave it, the body to the dust, and the soul, unable to survive without the connection of the breath of life and the dust of the Earth, dies with the body and enters the grave until resurrection.

    Immortal Spirit:When you die you DO have a spirit that flys into heaven or hell,judgment comes right after death.
    There is a distinction between "spirit" and "soul" in Scripture. Most who advocate one goes to Heaven or Hell at death do not refer to the part of man that goes there as a "spirit," but "soul." The immortality of the "soul" seems to be a popular doctrine. It's all very Platonic. However, I have argued, as well as N.T. Wright, that from a Biblical perspective, neither the spirit or soul survives death, and afterlife or no afterlife, it is unwise to theorize from a modern perspective what "part" of man survives death. If we enter God's presence after death, it will not be our "soul" or our "spirit." Frankly, I have no idea what part of us would enter God's presence after death, but all things are possible with God; how exactly it would happen is not really important.

    Which one of these views do you most agree with?I agree mostly with the second one but i want to see what ever body else thinks.
    I believe when you die you are fully dead until resurrection.

    If there is some sort of afterlife (which I really doubt there is), I would argue it is conditional and for the believer only. It would be intermediate and not the final hope. The final hope would continue to be bodily resurrection. The unbelievers would go to the same place everyone has always gone to before Jesus, sheol, which certainly is not the place of torment "hell" describes to the modern believer of today.

    Comment


    • #3
      I always thought...

      Soul sleep (if you will) was for those who lived B.C., and immortal spirit is for those A.D. like us.

      We will be conscious and waiting to reunite with a perfect body.

      Comment


      • #4
        I think of Samuel who was awoken by Saul through the Seuthsayer.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Serve-N-Protect View Post
          Soul sleep (if you will) was for those who lived B.C., and immortal spirit is for those A.D. like us.
          Like I said, it's unwise to theorize that we obtain an "immortal spirit" by coming to Jesus. N.T. Wright explains, "Where we find a glimmer of hope like this [for an afterlife in God's presence], it is based not on anything in the human make-up (e.g. an 'immortal soul'), but on YHWH and him alone" (The Ressurection of the Son of God, Wright 107).

          Despite what little glimmers of hope (if that's what they may be) Wright sees in the Old Covenant writings, even after Jesus' resurrection, Paul acknowledges that hades has power even over the believer, and will be defeated only through resurrection (1Co 15:52-55).

          Peter cites David's declaration that his soul would not be left in hades and says David was actually speaking of Jesus (Act 2:27, 31) and that David remained dead and buried (Act 2:29).

          Hades
          had hold over Jesus in death until his resurrection in the same way it has hold over us in death until our resurrection.

          Comment


          • #6
            Like I said, it's unwise to theorize that we obtain an "immortal spirit" by coming to Jesus.
            I never said that. Coming to Jesus or not, we are born with an immortal soul.


            Even after Jesus' resurrection, Paul acknowledges that hades has power even over the believer, and will be defeated only through resurrection (1Co 15:52-55).
            Yes. THE RESURECTION OF JESUS defeats death and the power of Hades, not our resurrection.

            Samuel was awoken by Saul (B.C.). Jesus raised a little girl from the dead (Body and all A.D.)

            Heaven opened for the sleeping upon Jesus' resurrection. We are now going to be resurrected per this event.

            All people for all time are awoke now and conscious in heaven. Upon the second coming we will receive new bodies of light. From Adam on.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Serve-N-Protect View Post
              I never said that. Coming to Jesus or not, we are born with an immortal soul.
              There is no evidence whatsoever of this. Adam was kicked out of the garden of Eden and denied immortality. If we do gain some form of immortality, it is by coming to Jesus and by coming to Jesus only. We certainly are not "born with an immortal soul." That's my opinion, anyway.

              Yes. THE RESURECTION OF JESUS defeats death and the power of Hades, not our resurrection.
              Jesus' resurrection defeated the power of death and hades over himself and is a type of what is to come for us. In the same way hades had power over Jesus when he died, so also does it have power over us when we die; however, so also was hades defeated when Christ was resurrected, so also will hades be defeated when we are resurrected. Hades is not totally defeated until after resurrection and the destruction of death and hades; this is why Paul sees the prophecy about the sting of hades as future (cf. 1Co 15:26).

              Jesus raised a little girl from the dead (Body and all A.D.)
              So? She died again later.

              All people for all time are awoke now and conscious in heaven.
              Peter didn't seem to think so. He was quite crude when he said Jesus, not David, defeated hades, whereas the former remained both dead and buried.

              Comment


              • #8
                Ya know what?

                This is way to intellectual for me. I'm having a hard enough time dealing with the issues of my day and daily life in Christ.

                So I respectfully bow out of the conversation.

                May God bless you all.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Zorgblar View Post
                  I have been reading through various posts on here and the two main ideas I keep getting are this:
                  Soul Sleep:when you die you don't have a spirit that flys into heaven or hell,your spirit is a life force there no such thing as a conscious afterlife heaven and hell come later and the only way for you to resurrected is for god to put this life force into a new body that he will make just for you.
                  Immortal Spirit:When you die you DO have a spirit that flys into heaven or hell,judgment comes right after death.
                  Which one of these views do you most agree with?I agree mostly with the second one but i want to see what ever body else thinks.
                  Hi Zorgblar,
                  I believe the Scriptures to say that when we are absent from the body that we are present with our Lord Jesus.

                  Philippians 1:23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

                  2 Corinthians 5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

                  John 12:26 "If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

                  Acts 7:55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God;

                  56 and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

                  57 But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse.

                  58 When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul.

                  59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!"

                  60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.


                  Blessings
                  The Journal of my grandson Nathaniel's courageous battle with cancer.........

                  http://www.caringbridge.org/cb/input...nathanielemily



                  Revelation 21:4) And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I personally don't believe in a Soul sleep.

                    Along with some of the other verses that have already been posted that I feel back this up, I would like to add:

                    Revelation 6:9-11 - When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

                    Doesn't sound to me like they are sleeping
                    http://www.mychristiansite.com/personal/vision/ <-- My site. Check it out

                    http://www.freehovind.com Please sign the petition to pardon Kent Hovind.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Zorgblar View Post
                      I have been reading through various posts on here and the two main ideas I keep getting are this:
                      Soul Sleep:when you die you don't have a spirit that flys into heaven or hell,your spirit is a life force there no such thing as a conscious afterlife heaven and hell come later and the only way for you to resurrected is for god to put this life force into a new body that he will make just for you.
                      Immortal Spirit:When you die you DO have a spirit that flys into heaven or hell,judgment comes right after death.
                      Which one of these views do you most agree with?I agree mostly with the second one but i want to see what ever body else thinks.
                      Greetings Zorblar,

                      This is a good discussion because it is obvious through the various posting of this subject much confusion abounds.

                      I wonder if discovering the difference between sheol, hades (hell), gehenna, and the lake of fire might be helpful? Translators haven't been consistent in translating these, and have caused confusion.

                      Every human being upon physical death goes bodily into hell (sheol, hades). Hell, sheol, hades simply means the grave. There is no eternal torment or suffering in hell. Hell is that place where the physical body remains until the fullness of time. Eternal torment comes in the fullness of time when unbelievers are judged and cast into the lake of fire.

                      Christ sometimes likens hell (grave) to the lake of fire, and speaks of great suffering, and agony to those who go there. When He does this He is making a distinction between those who go bodily to the grave after being born again, and those who go there in unbelief. For the one going to hell (the grave; sheol, hades) in unbelief, it is the same as being cast into the lake of fire because once we die in unbelief all hope of reigning eternally with the Lord is lost forever, and it is certain that the unbeliever will be cast into the eternal flames in the fullness of time, on Judgment Day.

                      The one who dies in unbelief has never been made spiritually alive in Christ. He/she has no surviving spirit from God that would go to be with the Lord at the moment of physical death. Without spiritual life there is nothing of the unbeliever that survives physical death, so his/her body returns to the dust from whence it came, and remains until the fullness of time, when Christ resurrects the body once more to stand before the Judgment Throne of God.

                      The fate awaiting those who die in Christ is far different. Believers have been resurrected to spiritual life already, so we (believers) have already been raised to be with the Lord even in physical life. It is true that our physical bodies, just like that of unbelievers goes into hell (the grave) at death, and our bodies return to the dust from whence it came, but our living spirit never dies. It is the new, living spirit we received at the moment we were born again, and this living spirit is empowered by the Holy Spirit, Who is giving it life. That is why Paul says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

                      Do we know what a living spirit is like, or how this living spirit in the presence of the Lord manifests itself? Not really! But, we have God's eternal promise that when we believe we have eternal, everlasting, never ending life, and since every human being dies in the body the only conclusion we can draw from this promise is that Christ has already made His own alive through His Spirit, and therefore brothers and sisters in Christ, we will never truly die. For even in death we are alive spiritually and reigning with Him always.

                      Many Blessings,
                      RW

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I am also reminded of the appearance of Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration.

                        (NASB) Luke 9:28 Some eight days after these sayings, He took along Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray.

                        29 And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming.

                        30 And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah,

                        31 who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

                        32 Now Peter and his companions had been overcome with sleep; but when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men standing with Him.

                        Blessings
                        The Journal of my grandson Nathaniel's courageous battle with cancer.........

                        http://www.caringbridge.org/cb/input...nathanielemily



                        Revelation 21:4) And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Paul born again
                          Originally posted by Paul_born_again View Post
                          I personally don't believe in a Soul sleep.
                          Souls "die", men "sleep".
                          Along with some of the other verses that have already been posted that I feel back this up, I would like to add:

                          Revelation 6:9-11 - When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait (Greek = rest) a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

                          Doesn't sound to me like they are sleeping
                          It's only a symbolic vision, there aren't really souls under an altar in heaven.

                          Besides in Greek, the verb for "rest a little longer" is also used for sleeping the sleep of the dead. See Rev14:13. And remember Moses was told to "rest" with his fathers, when he was buried. Which is why Jesus says that the "vision" of Moses and Elijah was an orama - it wasn't real.
                          God bless
                          Steven

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
                            Besides in Greek, the verb for "rest a little longer" is also used for sleeping the sleep of the dead. See Rev14:13. And remember Moses was told to "rest" with his fathers, when he was buried. Which is why Jesus says that the "vision" of Moses and Elijah was an orama - it wasn't real.
                            God bless
                            Steven
                            There is nothing in the definition that suggests an "orama" isn't real.

                            3705
                            3705 horama {hor'-am-ah}

                            from 3708; TDNT - 5:371,706; n n

                            AV - vision 11, sight 1; 12

                            1) that which is seen, spectacle
                            2) a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision



                            It certainly was real.


                            Acts 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
                            Acts 7:31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,

                            Was this real?


                            Acts 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
                            Acts 9:11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
                            Acts 9:12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
                            Acts 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
                            Acts 9:14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
                            Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
                            Acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
                            Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

                            Certainly this vision was real, and prophetic.

                            There are many examples but the point is that when God gives a vision, it is quite real.

                            Certainly Moses and Elijah were really there and were real and Christ did speak with them, and they him.
                            1Peter 3:15
                            (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Altar + soul = blood on an altar; a poetic image of sacrifice.

                              “And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar [thusiasteriou, a place of sacrifice] the souls [psychas] of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held” (Rev 6:9).

                              “But flesh with the life [psyches, LXX] thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat” (Gen 9:4).

                              “And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground” (Gen 4:10).

                              Vision = not always reality, like a dream.

                              “And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision [horama] to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead” (Mat 17:9).

                              “And he went out, and followed him; and wist not that it was true which was done by the angel; but thought he saw a vision [horama]” (Act 12:9).

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