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  • #16
    Originally posted by enarchay View Post
    I agree with Steven. The Jehovah's Witnesses, most of them anyway, are Christians with just strange beliefs. You can't "convert" one who is already converted.

    One more thing, the fact most Jehovah's Witnesses are handy with their Bibles should be something to be admired. They may not be right, but at least they usually can show you why they think they are right.

    Whoa...somebody pull on the reigns here.

    Jehovah's Witnesses vehemently deny the doctrine of the Trinity and deity of Christ. One cannot be saved that does not believe Jesus is who He said He is.

    "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." John 8:24

    Jesus claimed to the Christ, the anointed One - God in Flesh.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Sold Out View Post
      Whoa...somebody pull on the reigns here.

      Jehovah's Witnesses vehemently deny the doctrine of the Trinity and deity of Christ. One cannot be saved that does not believe Jesus is who He said He is.

      "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." John 8:24

      Jesus claimed to the Christ, the anointed One - God in Flesh.

      At no point did Jesus claim to be "God in the flesh"...Niether did any other person in the scriptures say he was "God in the flesh". The only scripture that discusses Jesus becoming flesh is John 1:14 "So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son."


      You will notice that it says nothing about him being God that became flesh. His glory is that of a begotten son, not of God. This scripture also points out that Jesus was begotten. Someone begat him. He is Jehovah's only direct creation. He is Jehovah's "only begotten" Since all other things were created through him.


      Col.1:15,16 "He is the image (an image is a reflection of the original but is not the original) of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; (He is the first born of creation. Meaning he was created and he is part of creation) 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him."

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by jujubea View Post
        At no point did Jesus claim to be "God in the flesh"...Niether did any other person in the scriptures say he was "God in the flesh". The only scripture that discusses Jesus becoming flesh is John 1:14 "So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son."
        You will notice that it says nothing about him being God that became flesh.
        So are you saying that you don't believe Jesus is God? You're scaring me.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Sold Out View Post
          So are you saying that you don't believe Jesus is God? You're scaring me.
          Yes. The scriptures do not uphold the thought that Jesus is God. Rather they teach that Jehovah is God. Jesus, as the Word or Logos, was Jehovah's first creation. All other creatures were created through the Word, Logos, Jesus. As pointed out in Col.1:15-20

          Comment


          • #20
            Once Jesus enemies were placed as a stool for his feet, he was given the throne. Rather than being King designate waiting, he was now King of God's Kingdom. This is what took place in 1914.
            So the enemies were made a footstool in 1914? Then why does death still exist (1Co 15:26)? Why 1914 anyway? Coming up with a date so exact would take some pretty exegetical footwork beyond that of Hal Lindsay's, in my mind.
            So it is not that Jesus came half way. He was given Kingdom power, and soon he will act with all his authority to remove the wicked from the earth.
            He was given the Kingdom as soon after he ascended, not in 1914 (if that's what JW teach). That is what "right hand of power" means.
            "Jesus said to him, 'You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven'" (Mat 26:64).

            "And Jesus said, 'I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.'' (Mar 14:62).

            "But from now on the Son of Man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God" (Luk 22:69).

            "I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man [going upward, not downward], and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him [cf. Heb 9:11-12]. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed" (Dan 7:13-14).

            "that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come" (Eph 1:20-21).
            Actually we view forced blood transfusions as a form of spiritual rape. Not something we want visited on our children, any more than we would want physical rape visited upon them.
            Spiritual rape?

            Can I ask a question about the blood transfusion thing? Why do you adhere to a commandment within the Torah but not all of the commandments within the Torah (e.g. food laws)? I've seen one passage quoted from Acts, but it is spoken clearly within the context of blood sacrifice to idols.

            I'm sorry if I am not coming off as friendly, I have nothing against Jehovah's Witnesses, I just do not agree with most of their doctrines (from what I understand to be their doctrines thus far).

            Comment


            • #21
              Jehovah's Witnesses vehemently deny the doctrine of the Trinity and deity of Christ. One cannot be saved that does not believe Jesus is who He said He is.
              They believe Jesus is the risen Messiah and, in some sense, divine. I do not believe adhering to the doctrine of the Trinity is required for being a Christian. But you are entitled to your own opinion.

              Jesus claimed to the Christ, the anointed One - God in Flesh.
              Jesus did not need to be God in the flesh to be the Messiah. The claim for divinity and the claim for Messiaship are two completely different claims.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by jujubea View Post
                At no point did Jesus claim to be "God in the flesh"...Niether did any other person in the scriptures say he was "God in the flesh". The only scripture that discusses Jesus becoming flesh is John 1:14 "So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son."

                While Jesus never comes out and bluntly claims to be God (certainly not God the Father), he does provide us with hints of his divinity. He creates parables with striking resemblances to the prophecies of YHWH returning to Zion but interprets them in light of his own presence.

                This is pulled from a lecture between N.T. Wright and James D.G. Dunn where both Wright and Dunn discuss Jesus' divinity:
                Wright: This is why I’ve said we need to spend more time with the idea of the return of YHWH to Zion. The penultimate chapter in my book on Jesus has to do with Jesus’ reappropriation of those return of YHWH themes and his application of them to himself. To my surprise, no reviewer has dumped on me from a great height on this (probably because they all stopped reading before they got to that chapter) because I actually thought it was the most controversial thing I was saying in the whole book. I go back to that again and again: When we look for the self-consciousness of Jesus (and I’m aware of yards of books complaining about that phrasing), I believe, as a historian and as a Christian, that when Jesus came to Jerusalem on that last journey and told stories about a king or a master coming back to see what was going on and to judge people, what he had in mind was to explain what he was doing in coming at last to challenge Jerusalem and to explain it by means of telling stories about YHWH returning to Zion. In other words, as I think I say at one key point in the book (I’d love to know what Jimmy thinks of this), when you go back to the Exodus narratives, YHWH is there as a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night with the Israelites in the wilderness. Isaiah 40:5 says:

                Then the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
                And all flesh will see it together” (NASB).

                But it remains an open question as to what that’s going to look like. I believe, and have argued in detail, that Jesus believed that those prophecies of the return of YHWH, the glory of the Lord returning to Zion would not look like a whirlwind, a fire, Ezekiel’s dynamo picture, but would look like a young Jewish prophet riding in tears on a donkey and going off to have a last meal with his friends and die on a cross. In other words, I think Jesus was telling stories about God coming back to explain his own return to Jerusalem. That’s where I find very deep and rich, and very, very high Christology in the mind of Jesus himself, which then gives me a bridge to understand all the other hints which have been picked up in other bits of the tradition. Jimmy himself would say, and has said, that you take a thing like Peter’s confession, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” I take it that means “You are the Messiah.” I don’t think that means “You’re the second person of the Trinity.” Now Matthew maybe already thinks that Peter said more than he knew, and by the time we get to Paul, Paul is construing it as a lot more. But just because I think that doesn’t mean that Jesus didn’t have that sense of his own identity. Jimmy, you might want to come in on this.

                Dunn: Yes, there’s no doubt, I think, that from very early days, the first Christians were seeing God in Jesus, seeing Jesus as the human face of God, seeing Jesus as the one who shows them what God is like and all that. And the way in which already in Paul you have Jesus inserted into the Shema: “For us there is one God, the Father … and one Lord, Jesus Christ” (1 Cor. 8:6, NRSV), and so on – that’s really very astonishing" ("An Evening Conversation On Jesus and Paul").
                John, in particular, is packed full of implications of Jesus' divinity:
                • Jesus is the logos made flesh and the logos is theos (cf. Joh 1:14; John 1:1).
                • All things are said to be made through the logos (Joh 1:3).
                • Jesus is called light (Joh 1:5), while God is called light also (1Jn 1:5).
                • Jesus claims to have come down from Heaven (Joh 6:38).
                • Jesus claims to be one with the Father (Joh 10:30), which motivates the Jews to stone him.
                • Jesus claims to have existed before Abraham while alluding to Exo 3:14 LXX, which in turn motivates the Jews to stone him for blasphemy (Joh 8:58).
                • Thomas answers the risen Jesus, "My Lord and my God [theos]" (Joh 20:2).
                You will notice that it says nothing about him being God that became flesh. His glory is that of a begotten son, not of God.
                Read the UBS4 rendering of Joh 1:18, based on p66, p75, and the Codex Vaticanus (click here for more info), three of the oldest surviving Greek manuscripts: theon oudeis ewraken popote monogenes theos, ho wn eis ton kolpon tou patros ekeinos exegesato, literally, "No one has seen ever seen God; an only one, God, the one being in the bosom of the Father, that one has explained him," or as the ESV translates it, "No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known" (Joh 1:18).

                This scripture also points out that Jesus was begotten. Someone begat him. He is Jehovah's only direct creation. He is Jehovah's "only begotten" Since all other things were created through him.
                Scholars are now translating monogenes as "unique" or "only" instead of "only begotten" due to textual criticism. Jesus was in fact born, but the logos existed with God en arche, "in the beginning."


                Col.1:15,16 "He is the image (an image is a reflection of the original but is not the original) of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; (He is the first born of creation. Meaning he was created and he is part of creation) 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him."
                I would interpret this in light of the author's comment a few verses later that Jesus is "the beginning, the firstborn from the dead" (Col 1:18). That is, Jesus is the firstfruits (1Co 15:20), the first to be risen from the dead of all creation.

                Maybe the doctrine of the Trinity isn't spot on, but it is close enough for me. You are entitled to your own opinion, though.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by enarchay View Post
                  I agree with Steven. The Jehovah's Witnesses, most of them anyway, are Christians with just strange beliefs. You can't "convert" one who is already converted. While I may not agree with their organization and some of their doctrines, I believe there are many Jehovah's Witnesses out there who are true followers of the Messiah (to the best of their ability).
                  A Christian is only someone who follow Christ for who He is, namely God. JW's are not christians... After finding Saul, Barnabas brought him back to Antioch. Barnabas and Saul met with the church in Antioch for a whole year and taught a large group of people. The disciples were called Christians for the first time in the city of Antioch.
                  (Act 11:26 GW)


                  You can only be a Christian, if Christ lives in you... The anointing you received from Christ lives in you. You don't need anyone to teach you something else. Instead, Christ's anointing teaches you about everything. His anointing is true and contains no lie. So live in Christ as he taught you to do.
                  (1Jo 2:27 GW)
                  The Rapture

                  My dearest friends, I’m so sorry… so sorry
                  but I must confess, don’t worry
                  the rapture is not before the Great Tribulation
                  it’s before God’s wrath!!!

                  Because His wrath is not meant for you
                  it’s for all the people in the zoo
                  think about it and refresh…
                  you will see there’s no way out of here, in the flesh

                  If you really believe, you will see
                  the rapture is for you and me
                  when we decide to leave from here
                  that very day, oh! God adhere…


                  Comment


                  • #24
                    You can only be a Christian, if Christ lives in you...
                    Who are we to say Christ does not live in all Jehovah's Witnesses? I'm not saying all Jehovah's Witnesses are true Christians. But then again, not all Protestants are true Christians; not all Roman Catholics; and so on. We shouldn't single Jehovah's Witnesses out in particular.

                    By the way, to the best of my knowledge, Jehovah's Witnesses do not deny Jesus is in some sense divine; they just deny the doctrine of the Trinity.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by enarchay View Post
                      Who are we to say Christ does not live in all Jehovah's Witnesses? I'm not saying all Jehovah's Witnesses are true Christians. But then again, not all Protestants are true Christians; not all Roman Catholics; and so on. We shouldn't single Jehovah's Witnesses out in particular.

                      By the way, to the best of my knowledge, Jehovah's Witnesses do not deny Jesus is in some sense divine; they just deny the doctrine of the Trinity.
                      enarchay,

                      How can Christ live in you, if you don't see Him as God?
                      The Rapture

                      My dearest friends, I’m so sorry… so sorry
                      but I must confess, don’t worry
                      the rapture is not before the Great Tribulation
                      it’s before God’s wrath!!!

                      Because His wrath is not meant for you
                      it’s for all the people in the zoo
                      think about it and refresh…
                      you will see there’s no way out of here, in the flesh

                      If you really believe, you will see
                      the rapture is for you and me
                      when we decide to leave from here
                      that very day, oh! God adhere…


                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by CFJ View Post
                        enarchay,

                        How can Christ live in you, if you don't see Him as God?
                        Christos means "anointed," i.e. Messiah, but the Messiah didn't need to be God, and to the best of my knowledge, no Jew prior to Christianity expected the Messiah to be God.

                        The Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus is the Messiah. That is what the followers of Jesus believed. It was only later that the Apostles of Jesus began to realize he was God, and after that, there remained sects throughout Christianity who viewed Jesus in different ways until the proto-orthodox view ultimately won.

                        Personally, I don't believe it is a requirement to view Jesus as God. God knows ones heart and he knows that at least some Jehovah's Witnesses honestly seek the truth through the Scriptures and believe they are holding the proper interpretation of the Scriptures. It's not just Jehovah's Witnesses, also. I know Messianic Jews who do not believe Jesus is God and they earnestly love God and the Messiah more than some Christians who believe Jesus is God do (i.e. the lukewarm).

                        Besides, to the best of my knowledge, Jehovah's Witnesses do not deny Jesus as divine; they deny the Trinitarian formula.

                        On the other hand, just because I believe the view that Jesus is God is not a requirement, does not mean it does not make a heck of a lot of sense! It is still good to debate these issues, but if you hold the view that Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians just because they differ with you on some doctrines that are not as unambiguous as we would like to admit, you will not be much better off than those Jehovah's Witnesses who think Christians are pagans for believing in the Trinity.

                        Both Jehovah's Witnesses and Christians should be reluctant to create schisms and earnest to show each other the respect they deserve and the love of Christ God expects us to exemplify.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          enarchay,

                          You've got it all wrong my dear friend, JW's can never be christians and I can testify that I've seen with my own eyes JW's flee from me, when greeting them in the precious name of Jesus. They cannot stand when one tells them Jesus is God... Jesus is not God according to them and they flee like demons when the powerful name of Jesus came upon them.

                          Maybe you need to reconsider your stance on this...
                          The Rapture

                          My dearest friends, I’m so sorry… so sorry
                          but I must confess, don’t worry
                          the rapture is not before the Great Tribulation
                          it’s before God’s wrath!!!

                          Because His wrath is not meant for you
                          it’s for all the people in the zoo
                          think about it and refresh…
                          you will see there’s no way out of here, in the flesh

                          If you really believe, you will see
                          the rapture is for you and me
                          when we decide to leave from here
                          that very day, oh! God adhere…


                          Comment


                          • #28
                            You've got it all wrong my dear friend, JW's can never be christians and I can testify that I've seen with my own eyes JW's flee from me, when greeting them in the precious name of Jesus. They cannot stand when one tells them Jesus is God... Jesus is not God according to them and they flee like demons when the powerful name of Jesus came upon them.

                            Like I said, it's obvious not all Jehovah's Witnesses are true Christians, with the Spirit of God living inside of them. But the same is true for all denominations. There are large groups of people who go to Baptist, Seventh Day Adventist, Catholic, and Pentecostal churches every Sunday but could care less about Jesus any other time. I'm sure there are many Jehovah's Witnesses who believe what they believe just because they were raised to believe it. This is the result of their structure, if you ask me. But on the other hand, there are some Jehovah's Witnesses who really know the Scriptures and are dedicated to God our Father and his son Jesus Christ. It's not right to clump all Jehovah's Witnesses into a non-Christian category, just like it's not right to clump all Roman Catholics into a non-Christian category, Seventh Day Adventists into a non-Christian category, and so on! That would be like saying all Native Americans own casinos, all African Americans listen to is rap music, all white people can't dance, and whatever stereotypes you can think of and so on.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by enarchay View Post
                              So the enemies were made a footstool in 1914? Then why does death still exist (1Co 15:26)?
                              There would be a time period of subduing in the midst of his enemies. Having taken kingdom power Jesus would go subduing in the midst of his enemies. (Psalm 110:2) The final enemy, death, is not brought to nothing until the end of the thousand year reign. Rev. 21:1- 8 .

                              It is interesting to note what takes place once death “is brought to nothing”. 1Cor. 15:27 “For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”


                              Originally posted by enarchay View Post
                              Why 1914 anyway? Coming up with a date so exact would take some pretty exegetical fotwork beyond that of Hal Lindsay's, in my mind.
                              Two lines of evidence point to that year:

                              (1) Bible chronology

                              Read Daniel4:1-17. Verses 20-37 show that this prophecy had a fulfillment upon Nebuchadnezzar. But it also has a larger fulfillment. How do we know that? Verses 3 and 17 show that the dream that God gave to King Nebuchadnezzar deals with the Kingdom of God and God’s promise to give it “to the one whom he wants to . . . even the lowliest one of mankind.”


                              The entire Bible shows that Jehovah’s purpose is for his own Son, Jesus Christ, to rule as His representative over mankind. (Ps. 2:1-8; Dan. 7:13, 14; 1Cor. 15:23-25; Rev. 11:15; 12:10) The Bible’s description of Jesus shows that he was indeed “the lowliest one of mankind.” (Phil. 2:7, 8; Matt. 11:28-30) The prophetic dream, then, points to the time when Jehovah would give rulership over mankind to his own Son.

                              What was to happen in the meantime? Rulership over mankind, as represented by the tree and its rootstock, would have “the heart of a beast.” (Dan. 4:16) The history of mankind would be dominated by governments that displayed the characteristics of wild beasts. In modern times, the bear is commonly used to represent Russia; the eagle, the United States; the lion, Britain; the dragon, China.


                              The Bible also uses wild beasts as symbols of world governments and of the entire global system of human rulership under the influence of Satan. (Dan. 7:2-8, 17,23; 8:20-22; Rev. 13:1,2) As Jesus showed in his prophecy pointing to the conclusion of the system of things, Jerusalem would be “trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations” were fulfilled. (Luke 21:24)


                              “Jerusalem” represented the Kingdom of God because its kings were said to sit on “the throne of the kingship of Jehovah.” (1 Chron. 28:4, 5; Matt. 5:34, 35) So, the Gentile governments, represented by wild beasts, would ‘trample’ on the right of God’s Kingdom to direct human affairs and would themselves hold sway under Satan’s control.—Compare Luke 4:5, 6.

                              For how long would such governments be permitted to exercise this control before Jehovah gave the Kingdom to JesusChrist?
                              Daniel 4:16 says “seven times” (“seven years,” AT and Mo, also JB footnote on verse 13). The Bible shows that in calculating prophetic time, a day is counted as a year. (Ezek. 4:6; Num. 14:34) How many “days,” then, are involved? Revelation 11:2, 3 clearly states that 42 months (3 1/2 years) in that prophecy are counted as 1,260 days. Seven years would be twice that, or 2,520 days. Applying the “day for a year” rule would result in 2,520 years.

                              When did the counting of the “seventimes ”begin? After Zedekiah, the last king in the typical Kingdom of God, was removed from the throne in Jerusalem by the Babylonians. (Ezek. 21:25-27) Finally, by early October of 607 B.C.E. the last vestige of Jewish sovereignty was gone. By that time the Jewish governor, Gedaliah, who had been left in charge by the Babylonians, had been assassinated, and the remaining Jews had fled to Egypt. (Jeremiah, chapters 40-43) Reliable Bible chronology indicates that this took place 70 years before 537 B.C.E., the year in which the Jews returned from captivity; that is, it took place by early October of 607 B.C.E. (Jer. 29:10; Dan. 9:2; for further details, see the book “LetYourKingdomCome,” pages 186-189.)

                              How, then, is the time calculated downto1914? Counting 2,520 years from early October of 607 B.C.E. brings us to early October of 1914 C.E.,


                              CALCULATINGTHE“SEVENTIMES”
                              Seven times” = 7 X 360 = 2,520 years
                              A Biblical “time,” or year = 12 X 30 days = 360. (Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:6,14)
                              In the fulfillment of the “seven times” each day equals one year. (Ezek. 4:6; Num. 14:34)
                              Early October, 607 B.C.E., to December 31, 607 B.C.E.= 1/4 year
                              January 1, 606 B.C.E., to December 31, 1 B.C.E. = 606 years
                              January 1, 1 C.E., to December 31, 1913 = 1,913 years
                              January 1, 1914, to early October, 1914 = 3/4 year
                              Total: 2,520 years

                              (2) the events since 1914 in fulfillment of prophecy:
                              The prophecies are set out in Mathew 24, 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21; there are further details at 2 Timothy 3:1-5, 2 Peter 3:3, 4, and Revelation 6:1-8.
                              We believe their fulfillment has been quite evident since 1914 . It is important to note that in Matthew 24 the question put to Jesus is not about his “coming” as many translations render it rather it is about his presence. (erchomai, meaning coming) (parousia, meaning presence). If you would like more detail, just let me know.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by enarchay View Post
                                He was given the Kingdom as soon after he ascended, not in 1914 (if that's what JW teach). That is what "right hand of power" means.
                                "Jesus said to him, 'You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven'" (Mat 26:64).

                                "And Jesus said, 'I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.'' (Mar 14:62).

                                "But from now on the Son of Man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God" (Luk 22:69).).




                                I am not sure why you give it that definition. The righthand was considered to be of great importance, symbolically. Joseph was displeased when Jacob crossed his hands in order to lay his right hand on Ephraim, Joseph’s younger son. But Jacob did this purposely, to give Ephraim the superior blessing. (Ge 48:13-20) To be on the right hand of a ruler was to have the most important position, next to the ruler himself , or a position in his favor. (Mt 25:33)


                                Jesus being at the right hand of power , places him in at the right hand of God, who is the source of power.


                                Acts 7:55,56 “But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand, and he said: “Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand.”

                                It is noteworthy that Jesus is not pictured here as God, but as the "Son of Man" He is next to God, who id the source of power.

                                Jesus is spoken of in the vision of Revelation as having the seven stars of the seven congregations in his right hand. That is, all these bodies of elders have his favor and are under his full control, power, and direction.—Re 1:16, 20; 2:1.
                                For God to take hold of one’s right hand would strengthen that one. (Ps 73:23) Usually the right hand of a warrior was his sword-wielding hand, and it was unprotected by the shield in the left hand. Therefore, a friend would stand or fight at his right hand as an upholder and protector. This circumstance is used metaphorically with regard to God’s help and protection to those serving him.—Ps 16:8; 109:30, 31; 110:5; 121:5.
                                The writer of Ecclesiastes says: “The heart of the wise is at his right hand, but the heart of the stupid at his left hand.” In other words, the wise one inclines toward a good, favorable path, but the stupid one inclines toward a bad course.—Ec 10:2.

                                Originally posted by enarchay View Post
                                "I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man [going upward, not downward], and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him [cf. Heb 9:11-12]. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed" (Dan 7:13-14).
                                I agree that the kingdom was given to Christ after his resurrection, however this scripture does not give a time frame. It is not necessarily immediate. It is a good scriptures, that once again shows the Christ to be someone seperate and subordinate to God. Jehovah God is the "Ancient of Days" Jesus is the one like the "Son of Man"

                                Some versions say "he came to", some say "he approached", "was led into his presence" "they brought Him near before Him", but no matter the phrasing, Jesus comes in before Jehovah God. He is not a third part of the ancient of days that rejoins the Godhead.


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