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  • Discussion of Jehovah's Witness Doctrine

    Hi Gypsy
    I'm a total heretic myself - a liberal unitarian with all sorts of flaky ideas, so far worse than a JW and I probably need being saved into orthodoxy more than your colleague does, so best take what I'm going to say with a large teaspoon of salt ....and also I have to admit that I've never been to a JW meeting (I can't imagine it'd be my cup of tea but don't imagine they eat babies either) ...but all the same I take them to be sincere Bible-believing Christians, with some oddities. Other people are always odd

    Originally posted by Gypsy
    She does see that she is witnessing to me with a drink in one hand, a cigarette in the other and her life falling apart around her. She often sais things like "Please don't think that I'm a representative Witness" but, even in the face of that evidence she can not admit any errors of her faith, but rather she believes that she is not doing it right. I can feel her doubts, but can also feel that she has been conditioned to squelch them. That any doubt is in fact a threat to her salvation. That if she doubts, or even listens to anything else she is not doing it right.

    Please pray for my friend and that I be made able to “fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel”

    God Bless
    At the risk of being controversial, can you say clearly what it is you're trying to convert her into? Ephesians 6:19 "that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel" relates back to Ephesians 3:6 "This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel." If she's a JW she'll already know that better than most Evangelical Christians. They have quite a good grounding in the promises/gospel preached before to Abraham and so on, even if they do now believe that God has now totally finished with Israel.

    What specifically is it that is so terrible about JWs that means they have to be pulled out of their churches?

    * They believe that Jesus came back halfway in 1914, and is coming the whole way later? - pretty stupid in my view given "every eye will see him" and Mark 13:32, but not a million miles away from the pre-trib rapture-to-heaven preached by the "Left Behind" books. And of course millions of Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic and many Protestant believers don't believe Christ is literally coming back at all, ever.

    * They believe only 144,000 go to heaven, and the other millions of "saved" on earth? Again what's so terrible? In my local Anglican church, half the members believe in heaven-going, half believe in sleep and resurrection on earth. The only difference is the JWs seem to believe in both at the same time. (Seems a bit odd to me to preach mortality of the soul and then except your own members, but there we go, everyone believes their church is special )

    * While they busily deny the word "Trinity", and the Nicean and Chalcedonian creeds, in fact in what they actually believe about Jesus they are often more Trinitarian than many Trinitarians - particularly Anglicans and Roman Catholics. They take very literally a preexistent distinct Logos-Person (Michael in their view, which I personally think weird, but again is found in some Evangelical churches too) Jesus taking part in making creation, physically casting off his heavenly body and entering Mary's womb, and so on.

    * They don't allow blood-transfusions, but fortunately the government in most countries no longer allows their views to harm their children (a blessing I suspect many JW parents are quietly very happy to have). But they're hardly the only church whose leaders are against making full use of medical treatment. How many fundamentalist churches pressure families to deny psychiatric care to people with mental illness?

    * They're pacifists - hurray!! Good for them (John 18:36)

    * They have their own translation of the Bible - as if Evangelicals don't.

    * They don't celebrate Christmas. (Well I do, but only as a worldling)

    I can't see that any of these put them so far outside the mainstream of Christendom that this lady needs converting/saving. In fact in a few areas - like pacifism and mortality of the soul (well non-JW 144,000 souls at least!) for example - you might do well to let the discussion be two-way

    God bless
    Steven

  • #2
    I agree with Steven. The Jehovah's Witnesses, most of them anyway, are Christians with just strange beliefs. You can't "convert" one who is already converted. While I may not agree with their organization and some of their doctrines, I believe there are many Jehovah's Witnesses out there who are true followers of the Messiah (to the best of their ability). I think we should be willing to enter friendly debates with Jehovah's Witnesses, because one of us may learn something. The biggest problem I see with Jehovah's Witnesses is they see no room for improvement. Perhaps, if anything, this is the error we need to help Jehovah's Witnesses see. But then again, many mainstream Christians hold a similar view, that they are right, and everyone else is wrong.

    I'm a total heretic myself - a liberal unitarian with all sorts of flaky ideas
    Yes, no one wants to listen to you, you poisonous root!
    * They believe that Jesus came back halfway in 1914, and is coming the whole way later? - pretty stupid in my view given "every eye will see him" and Mark 13:32, but not a million miles away from the pre-trib rapture-to-heaven preached by the "Left Behind" books. And of course millions of Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic and many Protestant believers don't believe Christ is literally coming back at all, ever.
    Exactly. The belief Jesus came back halfway in 1914 is not too far off from Hal Lindsay's prediction of Jesus returning around 1989.

    I can't see that any of these put them so far outside the mainstream of Christendom that this lady needs converting/saving. In fact in a few areas - like pacifism and mortality of the soul (well non-JW 144,000 souls at least!) for example - you might do well to let the discussion be two-way
    I don't think it has to do so much with Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs, but with their attitude. It seems many of them think they are inherently better and more correct than everyone and as a result cut themselves off from the rest of the body of Christ. This bothers me. Also, most of them put all their trust in their leaders. This is not much different than what goes on in mainstream Christianity, but you should never put your trust in the teachings of men, but search the truth for yourself in prayer and through diligent study of the Scriptures. On the other hand, not all Jehovah's Witnesses are like what we stereotype them as.

    I don't know what more else to say that Steven didn't already.

    One more thing, the fact most Jehovah's Witnesses are handy with their Bibles should be something to be admired. They may not be right, but at least they usually can show you why they think they are right.
    Last edited by enarchay; Sep 27th 2007, 03:46 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Also, can someone refer me to a good Trinitarian apologetic? We haven’t talked at length about this but I know it’s coming.
      The Trinity debate tends to be fruitless in my opinion.

      Comment


      • #4
        The Christian faith is centered on Jesus Christ. If you have a different Jesus, you don't have the Christian faith. The Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is not deity, but an angel -- Michael the Archangel. They believe He is 'a god' not God in human flesh. They deny the bodily resurrection of Jesus, which is absolutely critical to Biblical faith (1 Cor 15). This places them outside of orthodox Christianity.
        Love In Christ,
        Tanya






        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Gypsy
          Ahah, if you're busy converting each other then fine. Maybe you'll each move a step into the middle
          Originally posted by Gypsy
          So, to be directly responsive to your question, I pray that the Holy Spirit will move to “convert her into" the understanding that God loves her and has a plan for her life, but that, because she is a sinner, she has been separated from God. That the wage of that sin is death. That Jesus Christ, who was both the son of God and the son of man, suffered brutally and died in order to settle that debt. That His blood has washed away her sins so that she may become presentable to God. That He alone is the gate to God’s fellowship in the kingdom of heaven and that by asking Him for forgiveness and placing her faith in His love, her salvation will be secure.

          Is this not what you believe? We can not talk about it here but maybe we could start a thread in the World Religion Forum.
          No need I think. Yes I do, but more to the point, doesn't she? As far as I can tell every JW I've met does too. Why wouldn't they?

          We're all sinners, but why would she be "separated from God" after baptism because of belonging to the wrong church? Surely she's been baptised and born again just like any Evangelical. JWs do believe in baptism and the new-life. Isn't it, as Paul says, up to the Lord to "know who are his" not us?

          As to her life. You seem to be identifying, I dunno, touchy-feely differences, identifying that's she's not very up, or happy. Is that necessarily anything to do with which church someone goes to?

          Anyway, take care, and have fun converting each other
          Steven

          Comment


          • #6
            Gypsy, the situation you have found yourself in actually sounds quite nice. I unfortunately do not have many people in the flesh to talk with about Biblical issues. So I think you and her are both in a beneficial situation. Perhaps both of you will learn something new. If your friend learns anything, I hope it is that being a part of any one congregation or denomination does and should not mean anything. We should all be non-denominational in fact; but that should not stop us from going to one church over the other.

            However, I feel you may be misinterpreting or misrepresenting her personality. I am a Christian but I'm sure I come off as "dry" or "cold" in person sometimes, because I am quite composed and emotionally conserved. Sometimes that changes after you get to know me. That's not because I'm not filled with the Holy Spirit, but just because that's who I am and how I act in most situations; we all tend to act different around those we are comfortable with and those who we are just getting to know. I am happy but it does not always bluntly show as it does in some other people I know. I can't help it. In any case, personality does not necessarily indicate if one is filled with the Holy Spirit or not. Sometimes it is how one acts physically and not emotionally, i.e. you may appear sad but at the same time to go to great lengths to help others while not actually being sad at all. In short, I mean to say, you may be interpreting this person's personality for sadness, when in fact she is not sad.

            If you have any questions in particular, feel free to ask us two heretics, Steven and I.

            Just some friendly advice.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
              We're all sinners, but why would she be "separated from God" after baptism because of belonging to the wrong church? Surely she's been baptised and born again just like any Evangelical. JWs do believe in baptism and the new-life. Isn't it, as Paul says, up to the Lord to "know who are his" not us?
              Unless you have received the Holy Spirit, you aren't born again. The JWs have a different spirit, a different Jesus, and a different gospel. It doesn't matter if they were baptized, if the baptism is into something other than the gospel of Jesus Christ who died and rose again (bodily).

              What is insidious about the JW religion is that it closely resembles Christianity but is a complete counterfeit.
              As to her life. You seem to be identifying, I dunno, touchy-feely differences, identifying that's she's not very up, or happy. Is that necessarily anything to do with which church someone goes to?
              I think Jeffry is discerning in the Spirit that this woman is lost and in need of salvation.

              Maybe you'll each move a step into the middle
              The essential differences have no middle. What is in the middle of Jesus as God vs. Jesus as some sort of demigod or angel? What is in the middle of Jesus rising bodily (in the flesh) from the dead vs. rising in a 'spirit body?' What is in the middle of the Holy Spirit as personal Deity vs. some sort of impersonal life force?

              There is much that can be agreed upon between JWs and Christians, but there are certain things that cannot be compromised. The nature of God cannot be compromised, or you end up worshiping something that is not God. A false gospel cannot save anyone.

              If this were someone other than Jeffrey I would be concerned that some of the things you're saying would confuse him, and adversely affect his faith but I know Jeffrey knows better than that. Still, I don't think it's appropriate for anyone to argue in this New in Christ forum for the JW religion, however subtly.
              Love In Christ,
              Tanya






              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
                Hi Gypsy
                Ahah, if you're busy converting each other then fine. Maybe you'll each move a step into the middle
                No need I think. Yes I do, but more to the point, doesn't she? As far as I can tell every JW I've met does too. Why wouldn't they?

                We're all sinners, but why would she be "separated from God" after baptism because of belonging to the wrong church? Surely she's been baptised and born again just like any Evangelical. JWs do believe in baptism and the new-life. Isn't it, as Paul says, up to the Lord to "know who are his" not us?

                As to her life. You seem to be identifying, I dunno, touchy-feely differences, identifying that's she's not very up, or happy. Is that necessarily anything to do with which church someone goes to?

                Anyway, take care, and have fun converting each other
                Steven
                The purpose of evangelization is to win souls over to Christ, not to meet halfway. That would mean a compromise on the part of both of them - leaving neither one of them with faith in Christ but something else. It's a loose loose situation. We will be spit out if we are cold or lukewarm, only those who are all for Christ will be saved. No fence sitting or partial faith.

                Revelation 3
                14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

                15'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
                16'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 17'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
                The JW friend doesn't know what keeps her seperated from God or even that she is. She doesn't know, which is why Gypsy is sharing the Gospel with her as best he can.

                Gypsy's friend has stated that her belief is causing her and her family a great amount of stress. They expect her to measure up to their standard's, not a Godly standard. This friend does not belong to a Chrisian church. Their baptism is not a Christian baptism, of the Holy Spirit, as we know it but different in principle by a long shot. That's the thing with a cult - they make you think that it's wonderful and perfect and not out of the ordinary on the surface yet when you dig, even just a bit you find that it's not anything it's professed to be. JW are not Christian. As Gypsy said, just because it walks and talks like a duck doesn't mean it's a duck.
                Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
                Not second or third, but first.
                Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
                when He is the source of all hope,
                when His love is received and freely given,
                holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
                will all other things be added unto to you.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The essential differences have no middle. What is in the middle of Jesus as God vs. Jesus as some sort of demigod or angel? What is in the middle of Jesus rising bodily (in the flesh) from the dead vs. rising in a 'spirit body?' What is in the middle of the Holy Spirit as personal Deity vs. some sort of impersonal life force?
                  I agree Jesus is God, but I do not believe that belief is essential to the Christian faith; if it was, the authors of the gospels would have went to larger length to establish it. I believe it is essential to believe Jesus is the risen Messiah, the lamb that was slain for his people, and Lord of the world. If you believe there is one God and one Lord (1Co 8:6), you are on the right track in my opinion.

                  I understand your concerns about JW beliefs about Jesus' resurrection, but I've never really looked into their argument in the first place. I can see them quoting the bit about flesh and blood not inheriting the Kingdom of God, but then again, I believe the Kingdom of God is on Earth right now.

                  As for the whole thing about Jesus being Michael, I think it is pretty ridiculous to understand Jesus as an angel based on a few passages about a figure that is otherwise absent from Scripture, but on the other hand, the last time I checked, Daniel employs Michael as a Messianic figure. I’ll need to check that again later.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi Threebigrocks
                    Originally posted by threebigrocks View Post
                    The purpose of evangelization is to win souls over to Christ, not to meet halfway.
                    True, but is what we're discussing here really evangelization by the NT definition? In this context it isn't a Christian preaching to a Hindu, it's two people from two different churches - Evangelical and JW - preaching to each other. It's rather unlikely that one church is going to be 100% correct and the other 100% wrong.

                    The JW friend doesn't know what keeps her seperated from God or even that she is.
                    Where in the Bible does it say that JWs are "separated from God"? Ephesians 2:12 is talking about pagans worshipping idols.

                    2 Timothy 2:19 But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”


                    As Gypsy said, just because it walks and talks like a duck doesn't mean it's a duck.
                    That's certainly something we can agree on:

                    Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

                    We obviously see this differently - each to his own. I won't say any more.
                    Steven


                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                    Hi Tanya
                    If this were someone other than Jeffrey I would be concerned that some of the things you're saying would confuse him, and adversely affect his faith but I know Jeffrey knows better than that. Still, I don't think it's appropriate for anyone to argue in this New in Christ forum for the JW religion, however subtly.
                    This is "Apologetics and Evangelism" forum. And I am not "arguing for the JW religion, however subtly", I've made it clear that I consider a lot of their ideas crackers (though not the pacifist one), I'm simply suggesting that a bit of tolerance and kindness for other Christian churches is no bad thing. The Lord, not us, knows who are his. But as I said, I've no more to say.
                    Steven

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      New - afew questions on JWs

                      I'm from a Church of England / Anglican background - now outside of all denominations. I have studied with different denominations, including the Jehovah's Witnesses. The first thing you notice when approaching any church, is how kean they are to deny that other Christians are biblical/ saved/ are from Satan.
                      Roman Catholics are hated and denied by many, in my very short time on this board i 've already seen it here! Of course J Wits want to deny all denominations and i don't know any denomination that accepts them.
                      So can someone tell me what is wrong with them? They require all their followers to study the bible and not in a childish way but every day and with people with serious knowledge. I can't find this in any church/ denomination i approach! What is it they believe that contradicts the bible, because christians i know don't know?
                      The churches i know allow people to live together, have sex outside of marriage, divorce and remarry, abandon children, have homosexuals need i continue....
                      I am able, unlike most i meet, to hold my opinion, biblical opinion in my mind and listern to others without being changed. In all my study, even when i disagreed i was never able to see them denying bible truth. I just saw it differently. They certainly don't express personal opinion like in other denominations.
                      All i've ever heard against them is the status they give to the organisation. Is any denomination/ church different. If you don't value the opinions of the church/ denomination your in and their way of studying the scriptures, surely you wouldn't be in it!
                      I dislike their way of 'study'. That is mind control. Read a paragraph, answer from the paragraph, don't think for yourself. But if it is biblical even this would be hard to criticise. After all my opinion or yours is not important - only YaHWeH's Word through the scriptures.
                      Lastly no J Wit i have ever met would come to a message board and argue. It just is not their way. If any have come here they must be 'rogue' or ex ones. The elders would not allow it. It is so easy to gang up and attack people who can't respond.
                      I certainly am not a Jehovah's Witness and have had no contact with any for some years. I don't even see it as my role to defend them. But for balance, tell me, FROM A BIBLICAL POSITION ONLY, what they teach that is wrong. All denominations have unhappy followers. People will also change denominations. Shouldn't we spend more time reaching out to sinners than daily bible studiers who try harder than most to live loving lives in family groups. This especially applies to NEW Christians who by their own admission on this topic don't know what the bible says. I went to study once, to be told by the teacher that she hadn't even read the whole bible! I have and more than once. Perhaps each person who replies, could state if they have actually read the WHOLE bible!!!
                      1 Corinthians 1:12-13 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos: and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

                      Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptised in the name of Paul?

                      KJV

                      May the power of the Spirit of our God unite us. SofTy.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi Servant of Truth
                        I wasn't going to comment on this thread (or even stray into this forum) again, but the example of another Brit with a bit of CofE background encouraged me.
                        Originally posted by ServantofTruth View Post
                        I'm from a Church of England / Anglican background - now outside of all denominations. I have studied with different denominations, including the Jehovah's Witnesses. The first thing you notice when approaching any church, is how keen they are to deny that other Christians are biblical / saved / are from Satan.
                        Best of all the last one!! I get that last one all the time usually, ironically, because I don't believe Satan is anything more than a symbol of sin - therefore I must be serving Lucifer himself. I've even had a JW tell me that to "not believe in Satan" (his definition) means that Satan's got me . But generally my experience has been that JWs are okay, more tolerant than Exclusive Brethen and the more HS Evangelical churches in the UK, less tolerant than Open Brethren, Anglicans, Methodists, United Reformed, Catholics, Quakers etc.

                        But visiting the US you really get a feeling of how people there feel about JWs when the subject comes up. And it has deep roots going back at least to WWII.


                        TIME MAGAZINE 1940 - re how a mob of 2,000 fired a JW Kingdom Hall in Maine.
                        http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...764089,00.html

                        To outsiders, Jehovah's Witnesses are without doubt the most irritating of U. S. sects. They clatter about the country in jalopies, often a couple to a car, the man in overalls, the woman in calico. They ring doorbells, ask whoever answers to listen to their phonograph records attacking all "organized religion" (the Roman Catholic church in particular) as a racket. They disregard the law because they owe allegiance to "none but God." In school their children refuse to salute the flag, believing that it is a graven image. Last week into clink from Maine to Texas as alleged spies, radicals, fifth columnists and non-patriots bounced Bible-dizzy but patently sincere Jehovah's Witnesses. At Litchfield, 111., townsfolk mobbed a Witness motorcade, wrecked its cars. Police rushed 61 Witnesses to the city jail, then had to call for State policemen and neighboring sheriffs to protect the jail.

                        Several weeks after the attack, the witness is still trembling. "Everyone knew trouble was coming," ...

                        Liberals as well as conservatives gave the Witnesses short shrift. Mayor Maury Maverick of San Antonio, Tex., forbade a Witnesses' convention there, swore their refusal to salute the U. S. flag was an "overt act." But Republican Maine had the worst riots. At Kennebunk last week. Witness headquarters were sacked, burned by an angry mob. There and in nearby towns private houses were raided, Witnesses dragged out and beaten up.
                        Trouble at Kennebunk began when patriotic natives concluded that Witnesses were spreading subversive doctrines. When a threatening group marched to "Kingdom Hall," flimsy frame headquarters of the Witnesses, late one night, two got potted with buckshot. Next morning a mob of 2,000 set fire to Kingdom Hall. Police clapped its six occupants into jail for assault with intent to kill, later jailed two of the 2,000 for arson. Then the riots began. By the second night mobs were hunting victims. At Wells, Me., a crowd went to one man's house, demanding to know whether he was a Witness and whether he would salute the flag. Reported A. P.: "When the man denied membership and expressed no objection to saluting the flag, the crowd became abusive and threw stones at the house." Not until calmer heads pointed out that throwing stones would do no good to Maine's summer tourist season did thrifty Down-Easterners stay their hands.

                        At week's end, with little Witness literature left unburned in Maine, three Witness defendants were under protective guard in the jail of another county, three in hiding after giving bail.
                        The ironic thing is I'm sure that the invective, saying they're not even Christians and so on only makes them stronger. Persecution and prejudice are great strengtheners for any church.
                        God bless
                        Steven

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                        • #13
                          This is going to World Religions....now discuss away.
                          Come unto me all that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Matthew 11:28

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ServantofTruth View Post
                            I dislike their way of 'study'. That is mind control. Read a paragraph, answer from the paragraph, don't think for yourself. But if it is biblical even this would be hard to criticise.
                            Actually, it is encouraged that those studying answer from their own thoughts and words. Many do fall back on just answering from the paragraph, but this is not what Witnesses are aiming for. We want your thoughts, your feelings on any given paragraph. However, even if a person defaults to the paragraph answer, I would hardly say this is mind controle. As you noted, it is backed with scripture.

                            Originally posted by ServantofTruth View Post
                            Lastly no J Wit i have ever met would come to a message board and argue. It just is not their way. If any have come here they must be 'rogue' or ex ones. The elders would not allow it..
                            It is true that it is not encouraged, however, it is not something that Elder "allow or disallow". Watching violent movies is discouraged too, but Elders aren't going around checking out peoples movie colections. Elders are not controling in such ways. They are there to guide and encourage, but they are not masters over our faith.

                            I can assure you that I am a Witness in good standing. I am very cautious when posting on sites, such as this. I, woud not recomend it to others, as I am not sure of their strength or lack there of. For the most part it is a waist of time, since most on such sites are not really looking to learn anything, but I enjoy a challenge every now and again. It hones my skills, moves me to do more research and strengthens my faith.

                            Originally posted by ServantofTruth View Post
                            It is so easy to gang up and attack people who can't respond.
                            Originally posted by ServantofTruth View Post
                            I certainly am not a Jehovah's Witness and have had no contact with any for some years. I don't even see it as my role to defend them. But for balance, tell me, FROM A BIBLICAL POSITION ONLY, what they teach that is wrong.
                            Thank you for your balance. All too often people accept rumor and lies rather than try to get answers from Witnesses. They hold a prejudice without having the facts. So thank you for not being a lemming.

                            Judy

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
                              * They believe that Jesus came back halfway in 1914, and is coming the whole way later?
                              I can kinda see that, that is how some would enterpret what Witnesses believe, although I would say that it is not quite accurate.

                              When Jesus was resurrected he was invited to sit at Jehovahs right had. There he had to wait.

                              Psalm 110:1 "The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is:'Sit at my right hand
                              Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.'"

                              Isaiah 66:1 "This is what Jehovah has said: 'The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool....'"

                              Revelation 12:9-10 "So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!"

                              Once Jesus enemies were placed as a stool for his feet, he was given the throne. Rather than being King designate waiting, he was now King of God's Kingdom. This is what took place in 1914.

                              After Jesus goes "subduing in the midst of his enemies" (Psalm 110:2) he will come, in power to execute judgement at Armegedon.

                              Rev.19:19,20 "And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage the war with the one seated on the horse (Jesus) and with his army. 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who render worship to its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword of the one seated on the horse (Jesus), which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth. And all the birds were filled from the fleshy parts of them."

                              So it is not that Jesus came half way. He was given Kingdom power, and soon he will act with all his authority to remove the wicked from the earth.
                              Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
                              - pretty stupid in my view
                              You are certainly entitled to your view.

                              Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
                              - * They don't allow blood-transfusions, but fortunately the government in most countries no longer allows their views to harm their children (a blessing I suspect many JW parents are quietly very happy to have).
                              Actually we view forced blood transfusions as a form of spiritual rape. Not something we want visited on our children, any more than we would want physical rape visited upon them.

                              Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
                              - I can't see that any of these put them so far outside the mainstream of Christendom that this lady needs converting/saving. In fact in a few areas - like pacifism and mortality of the soul (well non-JW 144,000 souls at least!) for example - you might do well to let the discussion be two-way
                              God bless
                              Steven
                              Thank you for that. It is always a good thing when people can be rational and carry on a reasonable discussion.

                              Judy

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