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  • Are United Pentecostals Saved?

    This is coming from the Tongues thread that is currently being debated. I posted the question regarding how United Pentecostals speak in tongues just like born-again Christians, so how can they both speak in the same tongues?

    Some people have stated that they don't believe doctrine is important in matters of salvation, and also believe that just because UPC claims the name of Christ, they are saved.

    This thread's purpose is to show how they are NOT saved people, andthat doctrine is ESSENTIAL in matters of salvation.

    To begin, Jesus said in John 8:24,

    "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

    Who did Jesus claim to be? God in flesh, the second person of the Triune Godhead. One cannot be a Christian if he/she denies this doctrine. God is a trinity, co-existent in 3 persons: Father, Son & Holy Spirit. UPC believes that God is one (numerically) and only manifests Himself in three ways. In the Old Testament, He is God the Father, then He was incarnated as Jesus, and now in the Church age dwells in believers as the Holy Spirit. This is totally unscriptural.

    And not only that...they believe you have to be baptized in Jesus' name only to be saved, AND live a life of holiness. They do not believe nor have biblical salvation. It's all about works, based on the wrong foundation.

    So how is it possible that unsaved people can speak in the same tongues as saved people?

  • #2
    Let me be clear that I do not agree with much UPC doctrine nor am I endorsing it. I would, however, like to know how SO refutes my points.

    Originally posted by Sold Out View Post
    Some people have stated that they don't believe doctrine is important in matters of salvation
    I don't recall anyone saying doctrine is not important in matters of salvation.


    To begin, Jesus said in John 8:24,

    "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
    Who did Jesus claim to be? The Son of God. Who do UPC's believe Jesus to be? The Son of God.

    UPC believes that God is one (numerically)
    “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one! Deuteronomy 6:4

    AND live a life of holiness
    Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord. Hebrews 12:14
    My Blog

    Comment


    • #3
      [quote]
      Originally posted by Whispering Grace View Post
      Let me be clear that I do not agree with much UPC doctrine nor am I endorsing it. I would, however, like to know how SO refutes my points.
      I don't recall anyone saying doctrine is not important in matters of salvation.
      It was stated in the tongues thread...by Godsgirl, I think.




      Who did Jesus claim to be? The Son of God. Who do UPC's believe Jesus to be? The Son of God.
      But not part of the trinity. There IS a difference



      “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one! Deuteronomy 6:4


      The hebrew word for ONE here is 'echad' which means unified. It is not a numerical term.



      Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord. Hebrews 12:14

      Can you define holiness biblically?

      Comment


      • #4
        Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

        For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 8:16

        When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the the Lord Jesus. Acts 19:5


        Were they in error in the Bible when they baptized and instructed people to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus only?
        My Blog

        Comment


        • #5
          I have talked to Oneness believers, and I know for certain that what is being presented is wrong.

          Oneness believers believe that

          1. God the Father is God
          2. Jesus is God the Son
          3. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.

          Like the trinity doctrine, which outlines these things, there is no difference. The difference comes in with the explanation as to how they are one.

          The ones I have talked about say this, that God the Father is a Spirit Being. They believe that God the Father sent His Spirit into the womb of Mary, and the Spirit of God took on flesh. This is Lord Jesus. They also believe that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. So, according to them, it's the Spirit of God that makes all of them one. In other words, God's Spirit can take on multiple forms.

          Now, I see that many take that as saying that God can not be three and one at the same time, right? Well, again, this is from the people I talked to, at the baptism of Jesus, all three forms were present at the exazct same time. Therefore, they believe, as do I, that God can be in m,ultiple forms at the same time, each doing His will while also being God. Is God three in one? Yes. Is He united by the very same Spirit? Yes. Difference? Words.

          Trinitarians say that oneness folks believe that God can not be three distinct persons, while oneness folk think that trinitarians do not acknoledge that God is one. I find this silly. Am I a trinitarian? Yes. Am I a Oneness person. If their definition is the same as mine, yes. There is no difference. If there is a oneness doctrine that is being taught that I do not know of, then please enlighten me, because this is the definition that I know.

          BTW, a pastor that I know that is teaching oneness is one of those who have came to that very same conclusion, so I am not the only one here. He started using trinitarian terms to define God as One. Explain this if I am not correct.
          Last edited by third hero; Oct 5th 2007, 08:59 PM. Reason: adding a thought

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Sold Out View Post
            But not part of the trinity. There IS a difference
            When did Jesus claim to be part of a Trinity?

            The hebrew word for ONE here is 'echad' which means unified. It is not a numerical term.


            If that's the case, why do Jews not believe in the Trinity or a God of more than one Persons?


            Can you define holiness biblically?
            Separation to God and from the ways and things of the world.
            My Blog

            Comment


            • #7
              Here is what I said...please don't misquote me....


              Is having correct doctrine a prerequisite for salvation? I think not, so although I do not agree with UPC doctrine-if they have given their lives to Jesus Christ-they are saved.

              Last edited by Diggindeeper; Mar 10th 2011, 04:52 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                From the tongues thread:


                AND they believe in baptism & works for salvation.
                What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? James 2:14

                But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:20
                My Blog

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                • #9
                  Sold Out, they do not deny the divinty of Jesus Christ, therefore, how can you say they are not saved.
                  I personally have met Jesus and have God speak to me on a number of occassions. I believe that God is One person in three offices, but I also don't totally reject the doctrine of the trinity. However, I do adhere more to the lines that God is 1 person, not 3 people/persons. I believe that God cannot be put into some neat little doctrinal box, as He is far beyond anything we can describe.
                  I worship Jesus, and feel that water baptism is something that we are to do, but none of us are really sure on how it should be done. If we were, then we wouldn't have so many different doctrines on that topic alone.
                  I love the Lord my God with all my heart and all my soul and all my strength, I believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, and God manifested in the flesh, as the scriptures say. I believe that He suffered and died for my sins on a cross at calvary and on the third day rose again, and I believe that He now sits at the might right hand of the Father, I believe that His Spirit was poured out on the day of pentecost and now indwells every believer. I believe that I am saved.
                  Are you going to tell me that I am not, because I don't fully adhere to the doctrine of the trinity? Yet I adhere to the doctrine that Jesus is God and worthy of worship and honor and glory and praise.
                  I believe that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, Isa 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
                  And Jesus never said "I am the second person of the trinity". NOt once, no where did He state this. That is "man's interpretation of what the scriptures say. I prefer to just let scripture speak for itself.

                  Are you going to tell me that I am giong to hell because I believe this describes Jesus?

                  And like anybody else, I believe that my faith will be manifested in the works that I do for the glory of our Lord. Because faith without works is dead, I know that by my new nature I will naturally live in such a way that shows my faith.

                  Baring in mind that I have never heard of the UPC, so I have no idea what doctrin they hold aside from what you posted here.
                  Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by third hero View Post
                    I have talked to Oneness believers, and I know for certain that what is being presented is wrong.

                    Oneness believers believe that

                    1. God the Father is God
                    2. Jesus is God the Son
                    3. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.

                    .
                    This is not true, there are a number of differing views on the oneness doctrine. I am more oneness than anything, and I believe that God is SPIRIT, not that God HAS a spirit, but that HE IS Spirit as Jesus said. And I believe that Jesus is God in the flesh and that He is as the bible states the Son of God.
                    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sold Out View Post
                      This is coming from the Tongues thread that is currently being debated. I posted the question regarding how United Pentecostals speak in tongues just like born-again Christians, so how can they both speak in the same tongues?

                      Some people have stated that they don't believe doctrine is important in matters of salvation, and also believe that just because UPC claims the name of Christ, they are saved.

                      This thread's purpose is to show how they are NOT saved people, andthat doctrine is ESSENTIAL in matters of salvation.

                      To begin, Jesus said in John 8:24,

                      "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

                      Who did Jesus claim to be? God in flesh, the second person of the Triune Godhead. One cannot be a Christian if he/she denies this doctrine. God is a trinity, co-existent in 3 persons: Father, Son & Holy Spirit. UPC believes that God is one (numerically) and only manifests Himself in three ways. In the Old Testament, He is God the Father, then He was incarnated as Jesus, and now in the Church age dwells in believers as the Holy Spirit. This is totally unscriptural.

                      And not only that...they believe you have to be baptized in Jesus' name only to be saved, AND live a life of holiness. They do not believe nor have biblical salvation. It's all about works, based on the wrong foundation.

                      So how is it possible that unsaved people can speak in the same tongues as saved people?
                      Do you have a link or something in order for me to go and read their full doctrine?

                      This will be much appreciated.

                      God bless
                      Phil

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sold Out View Post

                        So how is it possible that unsaved people can speak in the same tongues as saved people?
                        I personally don't believe that a person MUST speak in tongues to be saved, but I can answer your question with a question. Satan is a fallen angel. Would he not know the languages of angels? Is there any language he would not know?
                        This poor man called, and the LORD heard him; he saved him out of all his troubles. (Psalm 34:6)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I do not believe a person "must" speak in tongues to be saved either. However, when we are baptised in the Spirit we need not fear being used by satan-The Word says, "no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed"

                          "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more then, will your Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask.""

                          The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is for all of His children, Jesus even called it "the promise of the Father" in Acts 1-and Peter said,..."for this promise is to you, to your children, and to all who are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call"

                          If the UPC members are Gods children then they can speak in tongues as soon as they are baptised in the Holy Spirit.

                          One of the differences is that they believe they are not saved until they receive this baptism-I disagree...but no one has made a case here to show that they are not saved at all.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by godsgirl View Post
                            Here is what I said...please don't misquote me....


                            Is having correct doctrine a prerequisite for salvation? I think not, so although I do not agree with UPC doctrine-if they have given their lives to Jesus Christ-they are saved.

                            I agree. Having correct doctrine is not a prerequisite for salvation. I am not sure that there is any person alive that is doctrinally correct in every single area. If doctrinal correctness were a prerequisite to salvation, probably none of us would be saved. The prerequisite to salvation is Romans 10:9.

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                            • #15
                              I am just curious. Do all Pentecostals have the same beliefs or is "United" Pentecostals a different branch with different beliefs.

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