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  • The Rules of Halacha

    Since we're already on the subject, I'll put this up for your reading enjoyment.

    The Rules of Halacha

    by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan

    Jewish law is determined through an exacting process of metaphysical science, handed down from Sinai.


    It is God's will that there exist a certain degree of uniformity in Jewish practices, as well as in the interpretation of the Law. It is thus written, "There shall be one Torah and one law for you" (Numbers 15:16).
    Therefore, even when no formal central authority, such as the Sanhedrin, exists, God has provided guidelines to insure the continuance of Judaism as a unified way of life. These guidelines provide the basis for the system of Torah law known as halacha (literally, "the way").
    Moreover, it was impossible to include every possible case in the Oral Torah. It would also be impossible for the Sanhedrin to decide in every possible case. Therefore, God gave each qualified Torah scholar the right to decide questions of Torah law. Then, even if laws were forgotten, they could be restored through the halachic process.
    It is a positive commandment for a duly qualified Torah scholar to render decisions in questions of Torah law when asked. It is thus written, "You shall teach the children of Israel all the decrees which God told them through Moses" (Leviticus 10:11)...
    The unique relationship between God and Israel guarantees that we will always be able to ascertain His will. It is thus written, "You will seek God your Lord, and you will find Him, as long as you search after Him with all your heart and with all your soul" (Deut. 4:29)...
    Binding Customs
    God therefore granted the Jewish people as a whole a sort of collective Divine Inspiration so that they would be able to recognize the correct opinion in questions of Torah law. Therefore, when there is any question, it is ultimately decided on the basis of what becomes common practice. Hence, when a decision is accepted as a general custom, it becomes universally binding.
    Therefore, any practice, decision or code that is universally accepted by the Jewish people is assumed to represent God's will and is binding as such. Even when a decision is initially disputed, the commonly accepted opinion becomes binding as law.
    Since the Talmud was accepted by all Israel, it is the final authority in all questions of Torah law. Since such universal acceptance is a manifestation of God's will, one who opposes the teachings of the Talmud is like one who opposes God and His Torah. All later codes and decisions are binding only insofar as they are derived from the Talmud.
    Other works, written prior or contemporary to the Babylonian Talmud are likewise very important for the understanding of laws, beliefs and history. However, since they were all known to the compilers of the Talmud, it is assumed that when the Talmud disputes these works, it does so for a reason. Therefore, whenever they disagree with the Talmud, decisions found in the Jerusalem Talmud, Midrash and Tosefta are ignored. There are, however, certain special cases, where, because of long established custom, the opinions of other early works are accepted, even when they disagree with the Talmud.
    All the opinions found in the Talmud are equally sacred. Still, there is always one binding opinion whenever questions of actual practice are concerned. This is known either from the Talmudic discussions itself, or from later tradition.
    However, when a dispute involves questions of opinion or history, and has no special consequences any opinion found in the Talmud is equally acceptable. Similarly, no final decision is normally rendered between conflicting Talmudical opinions in the case of laws that are no longer applicable.
    Chain of Transmission
    The main work of the Talmud came to an end with the death of Ravina in 4259 (499 CE). This initiated the period of the Savoraim, who made some additions to the Talmud and placed it in its final form. The period of the Savoraim lasted for 90 years until 4349 (589 CE). They reached final decisions in all questions that had not been decided in the Talmud. Since the Savoraim headed academies including all the sages of the time, their decisions are as binding as those of the Talmud.
    Following the Savoraim came the period of the Geonim, which lasted until the death of Rav Hai Gaon in 4798 (1038 CE). They headed the great academies of Sura and Pumbedita in Babylonia, which had been founded in Talmudic times, and were accepted as centers of authority in all matters of Torah law. The decisions of the Geonim were based on traditions from the masters of the Talmud, and were almost universally accepted. Therefore, they cannot be disputed by any later authority without uncontestable proof.
    With the closing of the great Babylonian academies, there ceased to be any formally acknowledged center of Torah authority. However, numerous codes, based on the Talmud and the decisions of the Geonim were compiled by leading rabbis, and they achieved almost universal recognition.
    Most noteworthy among these were the codes of Rabbi Yitzchak Al-Fasi (Rif; 1013-1103 CE) and Rabbi Asher ben Yechiel (Rosh; 1250-1328 CE), as well as the Yad HaChazaka of Rabbi Moses Maimonides (Rambam; 1135-1204 CE). The rabbis of this period are known as Rishonim or "first [codifiers]."
    Code of Jewish Law
    The work that was most widely accepted, however, was the Shulchan Aruch (Code of Jewish Law) written by Rabbi Yosef Caro (1488-1575 CE), which took into account almost all of the earlier codes. Since the Shulchan Aruch followed the practices of the Sephardic practices, a gloss was added to it by Rabbi Moshe Isserles (1520-1527 CE), including all the Ashkenazic customs.
    With the publication of the Shulchan Aruch, the period of the Rishonim came to an end, and the period of the Acharonim or "later [codifiers]" began. The opinions of the Rishonim gained almost universal acceptance through the Shulchan Aruch, and therefore, the Acharonim usually do not oppose them. While the Acharonim may decide among opinions found in the Rishonim they do not dispute them without conclusive evidence."
    The Shulchan Aruch was not the individual opinion of its authors, but a compilation of opinions found in the works of the Rishonim which had gained the widest acceptance. Because of the near universal acceptance of the Shulchan Aruch, its decisions are considered binding, unless otherwise indicated by the leading authorities of succeeding generations.
    Since the Shulchan Aruch was the standard of Torah law, it became the subject of many commentaries which expounded, and occasionally disputes its opinions. Many of those which were printed alongside the Shulchan Aruch were almost universally accepted.
    There were a great many accepted authorities, both among the commentators to the Shulchan Aruch, and among the writers of responsa (teshuvot). These applied Torah law to individual cases, and often set binding precedents. Over the years, various compilations of these later opinions were published.
    Binding Precedents
    The opinions found in any generally accepted code or responsum is considered a binding precedent.
    Nevertheless, a recognized Torah scholar may dispute such a decision if he has ample Talmudic proof or an unequivocal tradition that a particular decision was not generally accepted. In such cases, it is preferable to follow the rulings of a living authority, as it is written, "You shall come... to the Judge who shall be in those days" (Deut. 17:9).
    In every generation, there are certain rabbis who, because of their great scholarship and piety, are generally accepted as religious leaders and authorities, as it is written, "You must observe all that they decide for you" (Deut. 17:10). Although this commandment relates specifically to the Sanhedrin, it also applies to the religious leaders of each generation.
    Just as a religious leader must be outstanding in wisdom and scholarship, so must he be distinguished in piety and observance. It is thus written, "They shall seek the Torah from his lips, for he is an angel of the Lord of Hosts" (Malachi 2:7). This is interpreted to mean that we should only seek to learn the Torah from a rabbi who resembles an angel in holiness and piety. If a person is not outstanding in piety and observance, he is not worthy of the prestige and authority of a religious leader, no matter how great his scholarship.
    Disputing Opinions
    An unopposed decision, whether given by a contemporary religious leader or found in an accepted code, should be accepted, even if it is not mentioned by other authorities.
    Whenever there is a dispute between two equally great authorities, whether they are contemporary to each other or not, we decide the same as in the case of any other questionable circumstance. If the case involves a law from the Torah, the stricter opinion must be followed, while if it involves rabbinical law, the more lenient opinion is followed. This is a general rule.
    The same rule also applies where there is equal reason to forbid as to permit, and therefore, no final decision is possible. However, if there is absolutely no basis whatever for a decision, then the stricter course must be taken, even in cases of rabbinical law.
    In the case of a Biblical law, the stricter opinion is always followed, even if it is that of the lesser of two authorities. However, in a question of rabbinical law, the opinion of the greater authority is followed, whether it is stricter or more lenient.
    The religious leader with the largest following is always considered the greater authority. However, if two authorities have an equal following, the one generally recognized as a superior scholar is considered the greater.
    Although experience is also taken into consideration, age alone is not enough to distinguish an authority.
    It is forbidden for a student to oppose his teacher. Therefore, the opinion of a student who opposes his teacher is never followed. This is even true when the student has a stricter opinion in the case of Biblical law.
    This, however, is only true during the lifetime of the teacher. After his death, his students are no different from any other independent scholars. Similarly, if a student surpasses his master in scholarship, he is no longer subservient to his master's opinions.
    Following the Majority
    It is written, "You shall incline after a majority" (Exodus 23:2). Although this commandment relates specifically to the Sanhedrin, it also applies to any controversy between religious leaders. In particular, if an individual opinion is opposed by that of the majority, the former is ignored.
    Therefore, if two factions oppose each other in a question of law, the opinion of the faction including the greatest number of sages is that which must be followed. However, if it is well established that the smaller group is superior in wisdom and scholarship, then its opinion must be followed. Wisdom takes precedence over number.
    Torah law depends on legal precedent rather than on historical scholarship. Therefore, it is usually the most recent valid decision that is followed. This is even true when it disputes an earlier majority.
    However, a later authority is only followed when he is known to be fully aware of the earlier decision and worthy of disputing it. Moreover, he must refute the earlier decision with clear and unambiguous proof rather than with mere logic. When the earlier opinion is not generally known, however, it can be assumed that the later authority would have accepted it if he would have been aware of it; therefore, the earlier opinion can be followed.
    The Community Rabbi
    When a community accepts a rabbi as their religious leader, his decisions are binding in all cases.
    The rabbi of a community may even reverse the decisions of his predecessors. This is true even if the current rabbi's decisions are more lenient.
    If the community rabbi is a recognized Torah authority, he must be followed, even when he disagrees with the majority of contemporary rabbis.
    In all such cases, the rabbi must depend on his own judgment. He can be secure in the promise of divine guidance, as it is written, "Consider what you do, for you judge not for man, but for God, and He is with you in your decision" (2 Chronicles 19:6).
    The authority of a community rabbi depends on his general acceptance. Therefore, other religious scholars living in the community may follow stricter opinions according to their own judgment. However, they may not openly oppose the community rabbi or publicly display their dissent.
    If there are many Torah scholars in the community who disagree with the rabbi, he should yield to the opinion of the majority. This is only true, however, where the majority are the rabbi's equals in wisdom and Torah knowledge. Under no condition should the rabbi yield to the ignorant laity in any question of Torah law, no matter how great their number.
    In rendering a decision, a rabbi must carefully consider all its aspects. Wherever possible, he should strive to find a precedent for his decisions from the opinions of earlier authorities.
    An opinion should not be based on abridged codes unless the rabbi knows their sources in the Talmud.
    A rabbi should not base his decision upon the mere action of an earlier authority unless he thoroughly understands the issue, and knows that the reason for the action is completely unambiguous. However, if the act was accompanied by a formal decision, it is the most valid of precedents.
    Just as a rabbi may not permit that which is forbidden, so must he be careful not to forbid that which is permitted. Therefore, if a rabbi must forbid something merely because of a question of law, because of a custom, or because of special circumstances, he must state his reason so as not to establish an erroneous precedent. Similarly, if he must permit something in an emergency, he must clarify his reason for that particular case.
    A rabbi should be careful not to render an unusual or anomalous decision, unless he carefully explains the reasons for it. Therefore, any uncommon decision that depends on subtle or esoteric reasoning should not be publicized, lest it lead to erroneous conclusions. It is for this reason that there are cases which are permitted only in the case of a scholar, and which may not be taught to the ignorant.
    When a rabbi renders a decision in a case in which there are no clear precedents, he must strive to bring as many proofs as possible...
    Binding Decisions
    When a rabbi renders a decision in a question of law, the Torah recognizes it as binding. Therefore, when a rabbi decides on a case and forbids something, it becomes intrinsically forbidden.
    Hence, when one rabbi forbids something in a specific case, another rabbi may not permit it in the same case. One rabbi can overturn the decision of another only if he can prove the initial decision to be erroneous.
    Since the initial decision renders the subject of a case intrinsically forbidden, it cannot be permitted even by a greater sage or by a majority rule.
    An erroneous decision cannot render a case intrinsically forbidden. Therefore, if a second rabbi is able to show that the original decision is refuted by generally accepted authorities or codes, he may reverse the original decision.
    Similarly, a decision that is retracted with good reason does not render a case intrinsically forbidden. Therefore, if a second rabbi is able to determine that common practice traditionally opposes the initial decision, even where it is disputed among authorities, he may convince the first rabbi to retract his decision and permit the case in question. Individual logic and judgment, however, are not considered sufficient reason for a rabbi to reverse even his own decision...
    In order to prevent controversy, one should not present a case before a rabbi without informing him of any previous decisions associated with that particular case.

  • #2
    Geographic Variations
    Although the Torah demands a certain degree of uniformity in practice, it does recognize geographical differences. Therefore, different communities may follow varying opinions in minor questions of Torah law.
    However, where there is no geographical or similar justification for varied practices, such differences are liable to be associated with ideological divergences and are forbidden. Within a single community, the Torah requires a high degree of uniformity in religious practice. In no case should it be made to appear that there is more than one Torah.
    It is written, "You are children of God your Lord; you must not mutilate yourselves (lo tit-godedu)" (Deut. 14:1). Just as it is forbidden to mutilate one's body, so is it prohibited to mutilate the body of Judaism by dividing it into factions. To do so is to disaffirm the universal fatherhood of God and the unity of His Torah.
    It is therefore forbidden for members of a single congregation to form factions, each following a different practice or opinion. It is likewise forbidden for a single rabbinical court to issue a split decision.
    However, where a city has more than one congregation, or more than one rabbinical court, the following of each one is counted as a separate community, and each one may follow different practices. Nevertheless, it is forbidden for a city to split into two congregations primarily because of a dispute over law or practice.
    It is forbidden for members of a community to follow different opinions even when it does not result in any strife. Where the differences in practice also result in strife and conflict, there is also the violation of the commandment, "You shall not be like Korach and his company" (Numbers 17:5), who caused strife and dissension in Israel...
    The prohibition against dividing into factions only applies to cases involving obvious questions of law. It does not apply to cases that merely involve a question of custom or commitment. Similarly, one may unobtrusively follow a stricter opinion in a case where it is not obvious that he is dissenting from the accepted practice of his community.
    A person is not guilty of forming separate factions when he has a valid reason for following a different practice than the community at large. Therefore, one may follow a stricter opinion because of his station or origin. However, when people from different communities form a gathering, they must all agree to abide by a common practice regarding all questions of law.
    Paralleling the Will of God
    Halacha does not represent mere legal decisions, but the will of God. Therefore, through the study of halacha, one can gain a unique closeness to God. It is through halacha that all things in the world become part of God's ultimate purpose. It is thus taught that one who studies halacha everyday is guaranteed a portion in the World to Come.
    The essence of the halachic process is that as long as it is not clouded by ulterior motives or the desire for assimilation or profit, the collective Jewish will parallels the will of God. Any decision or practice that is instituted exclusively to serve God therefore joins the mainstream of Jewish tradition that partakes of the authority of the Torah itself. It is thus taught that whatever an earnest scholar may innovate in the future has already been spoken at Sinai.

    Comment


    • #3
      Here is the will of God to which Moses & the prophets spoke:

      (Zec 9:9 KJV) Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

      (John 12:13-15 KJV) Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord. {14} And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, {15} Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

      And this is where Judaism is today without the presence of God, serving Him in vain by the commandments of these men who lead them away from their Hope in Jesus the Messiah:

      (Luke 13:35 KJV) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
      Robin

      Truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established that, unless one loves the truth, he cannot know it. - Blaise Pascal
      And Jesus saith unto him [Thomas], I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6
      Discernment is not needed in things that differ, but in things that appear to be the same. - Miles Sanford
      Those who compromise with Christís enemies may be reckoned with them. - C.H. Spurgeon

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Mograce2U View Post
        And this is where Judaism is today without the presence of God, serving Him in vain by the commandments of these men who lead them away from their Hope in Jesus the Messiah:
        Sigh. You guys really hate the rabbis, don't you? You think all of Judaism is just a big scam invented to keep us from the truth...

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Fenris View Post
          Sigh. You guys really hate the rabbis, don't you? You think all of Judaism is just a big scam invented to keep us from the truth...
          What I hate is when Christians look to them for light.

          (2 Tim 3:13 KJV) But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

          How does one know he is deceived since he has rejected the truth?

          (Isa 9:2 KJV) The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

          (John 8:12 KJV) Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

          Nobody who still calls Jesus a bastard has that light.
          Robin

          Truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established that, unless one loves the truth, he cannot know it. - Blaise Pascal
          And Jesus saith unto him [Thomas], I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6
          Discernment is not needed in things that differ, but in things that appear to be the same. - Miles Sanford
          Those who compromise with Christís enemies may be reckoned with them. - C.H. Spurgeon

          Comment


          • #6
            I must have missed something. Who called Jesus a bastard?

            Comment


            • #7
              Ah, this old chestnut (from faithweb):

              Mishnah Yevamot 4:18

              R. Shimon ben Azzai said: I found a book of geneologies in Jerusalem and in it is written "The man Plony is a bastard."

              This is claimed to be a reference to Jesus. However, this claim is patently ridiculous. The Mishnah was most likely referring to a famous person and, due to the lack of any practical ramifications, his name was left out by the compilers of the Mishnah. Plony is a biblical term used similar to John Doe today (cf. Ruth 4:1). The keeping of geneological records was very common in talmudic times so that regular Jews did not marry bastards and violate the biblical prohibition (Deuteronomy 23:3). Investigations into lineage and proclamations of bastardy were not uncommon (cf. Nehemiah 7:5; Talmud Kiddushin 70b-71a). There is no reason to assume that this refers to Jesus.


              You know, to claim that Jews don't understand the bible is one thing. To claim that the rabbis have somehow brainwashed and deceived us is, in my humble opinion, antisemitic.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Fenris View Post
                You know, to claim that Jews don't understand the bible is one thing. To claim that the rabbis have somehow brainwashed and deceived us is, in my humble opinion, antisemitic.
                I suppose because being Jewish is both a religion and a race of people, you could throw that in though I have not. Though not all semites are Jewish.

                There are sects in Christianity which are under the same veil. Do their leaders intend to deceive or is it because they first have been deceived by the error they have embraced?

                When the Pharisees blasphemied the Holy Spirit they did it by calling the power they saw displayed in Jesus the working of Satan. Judaism thinks Christians are idolators, and many do call Jesus a bastard. It always catches my attention when I hear a Jew swear using the name of Jesus - nobody ever swears according to "Krishna" now do they? But the Name that is above every name is open season when it comes to cursing.

                The gospel of Jesus is well known in the world. The suffering of Messiah was predicted in the Hebrew scripture. Yet unbelief persists, which is not because the truth is not known, but because it is denied. Israel who professes to still be looking forward to Messiah must reject a myriad of evidence and testimony in order to not see Jesus in that role.

                In Acts 5 a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a doctor of law gave this advice of "watch and see" regarding this Christian sect:

                (Acts 5:35-39 KJV) And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. {36} For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. {37} After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. {38} And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: {39} But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

                Now this doctrine HAS filled the world, yet Israel 2,000 years later still persists in not believing it (though many have).

                (Mat 21:42-44 KJV) Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? [Ps 118:22] {43} Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. {44} And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

                I keep pointing you back to the absent temple and the cross which caused its demise.

                (Luke 24:25-26 KJV) Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: {26} Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
                Robin

                Truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established that, unless one loves the truth, he cannot know it. - Blaise Pascal
                And Jesus saith unto him [Thomas], I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6
                Discernment is not needed in things that differ, but in things that appear to be the same. - Miles Sanford
                Those who compromise with Christís enemies may be reckoned with them. - C.H. Spurgeon

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mograce2U View Post
                  I suppose because being Jewish is both a religion and a race of people, you could throw that in though I have not. Though not all semites are Jewish.
                  The term antisemite specifically refers to hating Jews.
                  There are sects in Christianity which are under the same veil. Do their leaders intend to deceive or is it because they first have been deceived by the error they have embraced?
                  It isn't a 'sect' of Judaism your condemn, it's the whole thing.

                  When the Pharisees blasphemied the Holy Spirit they did it by calling the power they saw displayed in Jesus the working of Satan.
                  Deuteronomy 13: 2 If there arise in the midst of thee a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams--and he give thee a sign or a wonder, 3 and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke unto thee--saying: 'Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them'; 4 thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God putteth you to proof, to know whether ye do love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 5 After the LORD your God shall ye walk, and Him shall ye fear, and His commandments shall ye keep, and unto His voice shall ye hearken, and Him shall ye serve, and unto Him shall ye cleave.

                  Judaism thinks Christians are idolators
                  For a Jew it is idolatry. For a Christian it is fine.
                  and many do call Jesus a bastard
                  That is a lie, please read my above post on the subject.

                  It always catches my attention when I hear a Jew swear using the name of Jesus - nobody ever swears according to "Krishna" now do they? But the Name that is above every name is open season when it comes to cursing.
                  Jews are the only people in the world who do this?

                  The gospel of Jesus is well known in the world.
                  Yep.

                  The suffering of Messiah was predicted in the Hebrew scripture.
                  Uh, that is your opinion.
                  Yet unbelief persists, which is not because the truth is not known, but because it is denied.
                  Let's just say we find the evidence underwhelming.

                  Israel who professes to still be looking forward to Messiah must reject a myriad of evidence and testimony in order to not see Jesus in that role.
                  Or we just interpret the scripture differently.

                  In Acts 5 a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a doctor of law gave this advice of "watch and see" regarding this Christian sect
                  He was not a 'doctor of law', he was the head of the Pharisees in his day. He adopted a wait and see attitude because the pharisees were tolerant and nonviolent, in spite of what you may have been led to believe. He did not convert because he was underwhelmed by the evidence, just as Jews are today.

                  I keep pointing you back to the absent temple
                  The temple was destroyed in 583 BC and Judaism survived. God even forgave the Jews...without sacrifice! and allowed it to be rebuilt.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Fenris, I will leave you alone with this thought:

                    (John 3:10-21 KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? {11} Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. {12} If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? {13} And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. {14} And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: {15} That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. {16} For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. {17} For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. {18} He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. {19} And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. {20} For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. {21} But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

                    (John 12:44-50 KJV) Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. {45} And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. {46} I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. {47} And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. {48} He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. {49} For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. {50} And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

                    (Acts 13:46-47 KJV) Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. {47} For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
                    Robin

                    Truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established that, unless one loves the truth, he cannot know it. - Blaise Pascal
                    And Jesus saith unto him [Thomas], I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6
                    Discernment is not needed in things that differ, but in things that appear to be the same. - Miles Sanford
                    Those who compromise with Christís enemies may be reckoned with them. - C.H. Spurgeon

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mograce2U View Post
                      Fenris, I will leave you alone with this thought:
                      Can't refute what I said, eh?

                      {18} He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
                      Yeah, I bet they're stoking those coals for me even as I type. I'm going to hell to join the millions of Jewish martyrs through the ages.

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                      • #12
                        Quote:
                        When the Pharisees blasphemied the Holy Spirit they did it by calling the power they saw displayed in Jesus the working of Satan.
                        Deuteronomy 13: 2 If there arise in the midst of thee a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams--and he give thee a sign or a wonder, 3 and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke unto thee--saying: 'Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them'; 4 thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God putteth you to proof, to know whether ye do love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 5 After the LORD your God shall ye walk, and Him shall ye fear, and His commandments shall ye keep, and unto His voice shall ye hearken, and Him shall ye serve, and unto Him shall ye cleave.
                        This is talking about a prophet who says "let us go after other gods"... Yahushua wasn't telling anyone to go after any other god besides YHWH.

                        He was not a 'doctor of law', he was the head of the Pharisees in his day. He adopted a wait and see attitude because the pharisees were tolerant and nonviolent, in spite of what you may have been led to believe. He did not convert because he was underwhelmed by the evidence, just as Jews are today.
                        Tolerant? Non-violent? There are intolerant and violent people in every race... the Jewish people are not exempt from that. As I mentioned to you in another thread, I've seen video footage of Jewish people, rabbi included, barging in and attacking a Messianic gathering in Israel. Also, if you keep up with the Israeli news to see how the Chassids behaved when they found out that the gay pride parade was going to be coming to Jerusalem, burning dumpsters, throwing rocks, threatening their pulsa denura voodoo curse on the government.

                        The temple was destroyed in 583 BC and Judaism survived. God even forgave the Jews...without sacrifice! and allowed it to be rebuilt.
                        It took about 50 years before they were able to rebuild that time... what's the hold up now?
                        Thus says YHWH, "Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, Where the good way is, and walk in it; And you will find rest for your souls.
                        -Jeremiah 6:16

                        Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. - Matthew 11:29

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by diffangle View Post
                          This is talking about a prophet who says "let us go after other gods"... Yahushua wasn't telling anyone to go after any other god besides YHWH.
                          Well, a Jewish person would say that Jesus proclaiming himself God was telling them to worship a new god.

                          Tolerant? Non-violent? There are intolerant and violent people in every race... the Jewish people are not exempt from that.
                          In the timeframe we are talking about the rabbis were vehemently opposed to violence, particularly against the Romans. To draw the pharisees as a bunch of lunatics calling for blood is to ignore what your gospels say about Gamliel.

                          It took about 50 years before they were able to rebuild that time... what's the hold up now?
                          Obviously we have not repented.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Fenris View Post

                            Quote:
                            {18} He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
                            Yeah, I bet they're stoking those coals for me even as I type. I'm going to hell to join the millions of Jewish martyrs through the ages..
                            Here is the reason why we need salvation and the grace of God - sin condemns us. God has provided Himself a Lamb so that we could find the way to eternal life. The gospel opens the door and faith will guide you in. Martyrdom in and of itself only leads to death in this life - it is not the door that opens to salvation unless one has received the grace of God beforehand. Only one Man's death could open that door and Jesus died on a cross to take away your sins and mine so that we can live before a holy God for all eternity. Because He is risen we can share in His life. But that life must be received now else death will close the door to salvation forever.

                            Jesus stands at that door that leads into the Holy of Holies and there is no other way to get into heaven except thru Him. Judaism is not a way now that Messiah has come - Jesus is the Way. That door closed and another opened. You my friend are still standing at the closed door and that earthly door is not even here anymore. Instead of grumbling at the way God has opened, why not just take a step of faith toward the door we are trying to point you to and find the promise that is here? Abraham found it, as did Moses and David and many others.

                            Nobody has to go to hell anymore, but many will awake to shame because they refused the salvation God wrought for them. That is the repentance that is needed.
                            Robin

                            Truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established that, unless one loves the truth, he cannot know it. - Blaise Pascal
                            And Jesus saith unto him [Thomas], I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6
                            Discernment is not needed in things that differ, but in things that appear to be the same. - Miles Sanford
                            Those who compromise with Christís enemies may be reckoned with them. - C.H. Spurgeon

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                            • #15
                              We believe differently.

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