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Is there a different heaven for Jews?

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  • Is there a different heaven for Jews?

    Originally posted by Fenris
    It threatens the Jewish character of the state of Israel, and they have every right to take action.

    Then what? I go to hell forever- for believing the wrong thing?
    How can it possibly threaten the state of Israel when 90% of Israelis aren't even religious Jews? Do you believe the majority of Jews in Israel are going to become Christian for no reason?

    As for going to hell forever, I am not the one that makes that judgment. I would like to think that those who love YHVH and serve Him will not have that fate, but we're not discussing you or those like you who desire to serve YHVH. We are talking about those who have rejected YHVH and His Torah. If you're wrong and there is no temporary 11 month hell, then those who do not serve Him in this life, will not be with Him in the world to come. Then what? Do they miss out because you didn't take the time to evangelize them to serve the Living God and you didn't want us too?

    Shalom!
    II Timothy 2:15
    Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
    Read My Testimony sigpic Visit Our Website

  • #2
    Originally posted by Studyin'2Show View Post
    How can it possibly threaten the state of Israel when 90% of Israelis aren't even religious Jews?
    What happens if you have your way and those 90% become Christians?


    As for going to hell forever, I am not the one that makes that judgment. I would like to think that those who love YHVH and serve Him will not have that fate, but we're not discussing you or those like you who desire to serve YHVH. We are talking about those who have rejected YHVH and His Torah.
    You mean people like me?

    If you're wrong and there is no temporary 11 month hell, then those who do not serve Him in this life, will not be with Him in the world to come.
    Well, I'm confident enough that I'm right that I'll take that chance.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Fenris View Post
      What happens if you have your way and those 90% become Christians?

      You mean people like me?

      Well, I'm confident enough that I'm right that I'll take that chance.
      You have not answered the question. How does it threaten Israel if this 90% hears the Gospel? You answer mine, then I'll answer yours.

      I did not say that you had rejected Torah. Though I do believe you have not recognized the One Moses told Israel to watch for, I am not your judge. But again, this discussion here is not regarding you or those like you who desire to serve YHVH and observe Torah, but those who have rejected Him and His Torah.

      Who are you to tell them they don't have the right to make their own decision? Sure, take your chances if you like to gamble. But you have no right to tell the culturally Jewish atheist that they don't have the right to hear for themselves and make their own choice.

      Blessings!
      II Timothy 2:15
      Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
      Read My Testimony sigpic Visit Our Website

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Studyin'2Show View Post
        You have not answered the question. How does it threaten Israel if this 90% hears the Gospel? You answer mine, then I'll answer yours.
        Because Israel is a JEWISH state. It defines itself in that way and it may take steps to preserve that character.

        Who are you to tell them they don't have the right to make their own decision? Sure, take your chances if you like to gamble.
        You're gambling too. What if you're wrong and God punishes you for preaching lies?

        But you have no right to tell the culturally Jewish atheist that they don't have the right to hear for themselves and make their own choice.
        The Israeli government feels otherwise. take it up with them.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Fenris
          Right, but again, the government here has the right to restrict some speech. The government in Israel also has the right to restrict some speech. And they are exercising that right.
          The speech restricted here is incitement of violence... sharing the Gospel with someone hardly comes close to that. Again, why does Israel find the Gospel so threatening?

          Originally posted by Fenris
          I didn't say that.

          A Jewish atheist, whether they follow the Torah or not, is better off than a Jewish convert to Christianity. Christianity is a fine religion for non-Jews, but for Jews it is idolatry.
          As I pointed out atheism is idolatry too... it makes ones self their own god. What heaven does the atheist Jew get compared to the Jew that follows the Jewish Torah-observant Messiah?

          Because everyone doesn't get the same heaven. One's afterlife is based on their accomplishments in life; specifically, for a Jew, following the Torah.
          Thus says YHWH, "Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, Where the good way is, and walk in it; And you will find rest for your souls.
          -Jeremiah 6:16

          Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. - Matthew 11:29

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Fenris View Post
            What happens if you have your way and those 90% become Christians?
            I don't want them to 'convert to Christianity', I want them to find a better way of being Jewish.
            Handmaiden of the Messiah

            הִגִיד לְךָ אָדָם מַה־טּוֹב וּמַה יהוה דּוֹרֵשׁ מִמְּךָ כִּי אּם עֲשׂות מִשְׁפַּט וְאֳהַבַת חֶסֶד וְהַצְנֵחַ לֶכֶת עִם אֶלֹהֶיךָ
            מכה ו׃ח

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Fenris View Post
              Because Israel is a JEWISH state. It defines itself in that way and it may take steps to preserve that character.

              You're gambling too. What if you're wrong and God punishes you for preaching lies?

              The Israeli government feels otherwise. take it up with them.
              You have said that being Jewish is having a Jewish mother so that would not change. They would still be just as Jewish as they are now considering they are not religious Jews now. Anyway, Israel is quite obviously a culturally Jewish state otherwise all would be required to be observant and that is not the case. No change!

              I'm not gambling since God does speak with me and I know Him. So, you see I am more than confident that I speak what is truth! But even in your eyes I will only spend a maximum of 11 months in hell and would only have been eligible for Gentile heaven anyway so even then, no gamble.

              I believe those who are called to be missionaries there already are, so I'll leave it to them.

              Baruch HaShem!
              II Timothy 2:15
              Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
              Read My Testimony sigpic Visit Our Website

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by diffangle View Post
                The speech restricted here is incitement of violence... sharing the Gospel with someone hardly comes close to that.
                Sharing the Gospel threatens the Jewish character of Israel. Incitement to violence threatens the lives of Americans, and converting Jews in Israel threatens the souls of Israelis.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ChildofImmanuel View Post
                  I don't want them to 'convert to Christianity', I want them to find a better way of being Jewish.
                  What makes you think you know how to make them a better Jew?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Fenris View Post
                    Sharing the Gospel threatens the Jewish character of Israel. Incitement to violence threatens the lives of Americans, and converting Jews in Israel threatens the souls of Israelis.
                    But atheism is part of the "Jewish character" and is good for their souls? What is the threat to their soul if they're going to end up in heaven anyway?
                    Thus says YHWH, "Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, Where the good way is, and walk in it; And you will find rest for your souls.
                    -Jeremiah 6:16

                    Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. - Matthew 11:29

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by diffangle View Post
                      But atheism is part of the "Jewish character" and is good for their souls? What is the threat to their soul if they're going to end up in heaven anyway?
                      Atheism is religion-neutral, which I (and the Israeli government, apparently) find preferable to mass-conversion to Christianity.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Fenris View Post
                        Atheism is religion-neutral, which I (and the Israeli government, apparently) find preferable to mass-conversion to Christianity.
                        Wouldn't this verse apply to an atheist since he/she doesn't observe Torah and doesn't believe in YHWH...

                        Jer 6:19Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, [even] the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto My words, nor to My Law, but rejected it.

                        So what position in heaven does the atheist get compared to the Torah-observant believer in Messiah?
                        Thus says YHWH, "Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, Where the good way is, and walk in it; And you will find rest for your souls.
                        -Jeremiah 6:16

                        Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. - Matthew 11:29

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by diffangle View Post
                          Wouldn't this verse apply to an atheist since he/she doesn't observe Torah and doesn't believe in YHWH...

                          Jer 6:19Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, [even] the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto My words, nor to My Law, but rejected it.

                          So what position in heaven does the atheist get compared to the Torah-observant believer in Messiah?
                          In Jeremiah's time, atheism didn't exist. So he's referring to religions other than Judaism. Whether that pertains so Christianity or not is a point on which we'll differ, of course. In any case, you're asking if it is better in God's eyes for a Jew to be a Christian than an atheist, I can only give you my personal opinion: Christianity is worse because for a Jew it is idolatry. Part of my opinion is formulated on the fact that the Noahide Laws appear to prohibit idolatry but not atheism.

                          Now, if someone born a Jew actually kept all 613 commandments (as they pertained, anyway) but believed in Jesus vs. an atheist who kept none, well, that's an interesting thought experiment.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Fenris
                            Quote:
                            What happens to a Jew that converts to Christianity and has good accomplishments in life? What heaven do they get into?
                            I dunno. Should they have known better??
                            You don't know or don't have any guess? You keep saying it is better for a Jew to deny God than for a Jew to accept Christ. No judgements here, I just want to know why and what "heaven" they go to.
                            1Peter 3:15
                            (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Naphal View Post
                              You don't know or don't have any guess?
                              I don't know. Being an atheist is bad but worshiping idols is worse.
                              You keep saying it is better for a Jew to deny God than for a Jew to accept Christ. No judgements here, I just want to know why and what "heaven" they go to.
                              I don't know.

                              For us, it isn't all or nothing. Someone who violated the sabbath one time doesn't get the same punishment that Hitler is getting and someone who kept only a few commandments isn't getting the same reward as someone who was martyred for being Jewish.

                              Comment

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