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  • Abortion Discussion moved from Bible Chat

    Originally posted by punk View Post
    Shouldn't we then give everyone brain damage at birth so as to make their salvation more likely?
    Or kill them before the age of accountability. I've said before if innocence gets us to heaven then abortion is the most evangelical tool around.

  • #2
    Originally posted by mikebr View Post
    Or kill them before the age of accountability. I've said before if innocence gets us to heaven then abortion is the most evangelical tool around.
    Yeah, I've argued that before.

    The problem is that it reveals such a telling contradiction in the mainstream Christian position that people will react by assuming you must be joking.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by punk View Post
      Yeah, I've argued that before.

      The problem is that it reveals such a telling contradiction in the mainstream Christian position that people will react by assuming you must be joking.

      Nah. Its absolutely nothing to joke about.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by mikebr View Post
        Nah. Its absolutely nothing to joke about.
        Well very few want to consider the very hard alternatives that are needed to resolve the issue (assuming one wants to keep the propositions that abortion and infanticide are evils).

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by punk View Post
          Well very few want to consider the very hard alternatives that are needed to resolve the issue (assuming one wants to keep the propositions that abortion and infanticide are evils).
          Yeah, we are stuck in our comfortable beliefs that don't require a lot of study or thought. We are simply afraid that what we have always believed or been taught may be wrong. God is a tad bit bigger than that though. He can handle our questions.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by punk View Post
            Yeah, I've argued that before.

            The problem is that it reveals such a telling contradiction in the mainstream Christian position that people will react by assuming you must be joking.
            There's no contradiction there. God doesn't want murder to happen. The end really never has justified the means.
            Matt 9:13
            13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
            NASU

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
              There's no contradiction there. God doesn't want murder to happen. The end really never has justified the means.
              I thought God wanted everyone to be saved and dwell with Him in eternity.

              If we can do that by killing babies, why wouldn't God approve?

              I mean we evangelize to get as many people to heaven as possible, why not just do it earlier and more efficiently....

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by punk View Post
                I thought God wanted everyone to be saved and dwell with Him in eternity.

                If we can do that by killing babies, why wouldn't God approve?

                I mean we evangelize to get as many people to heaven as possible, why not just do it earlier and more efficiently....
                You know the answer to that. "Thou shalt not murder". God could just zap everyone and get them in heaven, but he doesn't.
                Matt 9:13
                13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                NASU

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                  You know the answer to that. "Thou shalt not murder". God could just zap everyone and get them in heaven, but he doesn't.
                  Ah yes, so the victim gets a free ticket to heaven, and the perpetrator gets condemned.

                  Aye, there's an interesting story there: a person who is willing to go to Hell personally to get as many innocents into Heaven as possible by murdering infants.

                  Of course if the sole motive of the person is to help more souls to God, it is hard to see them as genuinely villainous.

                  And of course the last bit is also a very interesting question which is never really adequately answered: Why all the theater of the crucifixion and so on when God could just as well save everyone without it?

                  Let us note as well:

                  When people condemn abortion and infanticide, they do so out of sympathy for the victim (which is odd since the victim is going straight to heaven), and not out of sympathy for the perpetrator (who in fact is the person in danger of going to hell for committing murder).

                  I've never once heard an pro-lifer be overcome with concern for the welfare of the soul of the abortionist, only for concern for the innocent child victim.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by punk View Post
                    Ah yes, so the victim gets a free ticket to heaven, and the perpetrator gets condemned.

                    Aye, there's an interesting story there: a person who is willing to go to Hell personally to get as many innocents into Heaven as possible by murdering infants.

                    Of course if the sole motive of the person is to help more souls to God, it is hard to see them as genuinely villainous.

                    And of course the last bit is also a very interesting question which is never really adequately answered: Why all the theater of the crucifixion and so on when God could just as well save everyone without it?

                    Let us note as well:

                    When people condemn abortion and infanticide, they do so out of sympathy for the victim (which is odd since the victim is going straight to heaven), and not out of sympathy for the perpetrator (who in fact is the person in danger of going to hell for committing murder).

                    I've never once heard an pro-lifer be overcome with concern for the welfare of the soul of the abortionist, only for concern for the innocent child victim.
                    I know many that pray for the life of the abortionist. Still, the straw man doesn't hold up. God said not to murder and every nation has such laws. If infanticide is not considered murder, then we are wrong and can drop it. If an unborn child is not human, then no need to have laws protecting him.

                    Would you use the same argument to protect 2 years old from infanticide? The question boils down to is a fetus human or not. If it is human life, then we should protect that life as we are taught in scripture. If not, then it doesn't really matter.
                    Matt 9:13
                    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                    NASU

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                      I know many that pray for the life of the abortionist. Still, the straw man doesn't hold up. God said not to murder and every nation has such laws. If infanticide is not considered murder, then we are wrong and can drop it. If an unborn child is not human, then no need to have laws protecting him.

                      Would you use the same argument to protect 2 years old from infanticide? The question boils down to is a fetus human or not. If it is human life, then we should protect that life as we are taught in scripture. If not, then it doesn't really matter.
                      I'm not arguing about social policy.

                      I am arguing about an inherent contradiction in what commonly passes for "Christian teaching".

                      I'm not saying abortion should be legal, I'm not saying infanticide should be legal.

                      I'm saying that if people really took what commonly passes for "Christian teaching" seriously and consistently, then they ought to advocate abortion and infanticide as good things.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by punk View Post
                        I'm saying that if people really took what commonly passes for "Christian teaching" seriously and consistently, then they ought to advocate abortion and infanticide as good things.
                        But that is a contradictory statement. Let's advocate sin so that blessings may come. That's the point I am arguing against. Should we abuse the verse that says "all things work to good" and say because the end is good the thing is good? No.

                        Will babies go to heaven? Perhaps. David said he would see his dead son from Bathsheba again. But do we know if babies of unsaved parents go? I think a case can be made for it, but I wouldn't call it rock solid. Even so, that doesn't justify abortion in any way.

                        I think you create a straw man. Murder is fine if the victim goes to heaven. Therefore Christians should cheer murder.
                        Matt 9:13
                        13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                        NASU

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                          But that is a contradictory statement. Let's advocate sin so that blessings may come. That's the point I am arguing against. Should we abuse the verse that says "all things work to good" and say because the end is good the thing is good? No.

                          Will babies go to heaven? Perhaps. David said he would see his dead son from Bathsheba again. But do we know if babies of unsaved parents go? I think a case can be made for it, but I wouldn't call it rock solid. Even so, that doesn't justify abortion in any way.

                          I think you create a straw man. Murder is fine if the victim goes to heaven. Therefore Christians should cheer murder.
                          See, you've gone and denied one of the premises that we started with:

                          => Anyone who dies below the age of accountability goes automatically to heaven.

                          If you want to go ahead and deny that, well that's fine. That would be one of the difficult choices I mentioned earlier.

                          The argument in question only goes through if one affirms that proposition (which seems to be the case with popular contemporary understandings of Christianity).

                          My point was that if you actually affirm that proposition, then abortion and infanticide must be good things.

                          If you think it is a strawman, then fine, there is nothing more for you to discuss. I don't see it as a strawman, just a glaring problem with simplistic theologies.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by punk View Post
                            My point was that if you actually affirm that proposition, then abortion and infanticide must be good things.
                            This is simply a false proposition. As I stated before, scripture says all things work to good for them that love God. Does that mean all things are good? No. On the contrary, only what God does is truly good. But that is what you are suggesting. If it ends good, then it must be good. You see the act of murder as sending someone to heaven without seeing the consequence of the abortionist or the loss of rewards for the baby, loss of choice, loss of influence through eternity, loss opportunity.

                            There are other points to make, but I wish to let this one stand for a moment. Evil is never good even if it can be used to further God's eternal plan.
                            Matt 9:13
                            13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                            NASU

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                              This is simply a false proposition. As I stated before, scripture says all things work to good for them that love God. Does that mean all things are good? No. On the contrary, only what God does is truly good. But that is what you are suggesting. If it ends good, then it must be good. You see the act of murder as sending someone to heaven without seeing the consequence of the abortionist or the loss of rewards for the baby, loss of choice, loss of influence through eternity, loss opportunity.

                              There are other points to make, but I wish to let this one stand for a moment. Evil is never good even if it can be used to further God's eternal plan.
                              Well then you appear to disagree with what passes for doctrine in contemporary popular Christianity as well.

                              The whole point of the affirmation that if one dies sufficiently young then one goes straight to heaven is to affirm that none of that matters.

                              Comment

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