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  • Transfiguration

    Matthew 17:1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
    2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
    3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.


    I've been thinking on the transfiguration..... I have some questions...... Just some thoughts going through my mind ..........Why did Jesus have to speak with Moses and Elijah? For that matter why was there a need for them to speak with Jesus? What was the purpose of the transfiguration?

    Matthew 16:28 "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

    And going back to chapter 16 what was meant by "the Son of Man coming into His kingdom"?

    What did the transfiguration have to do with the kingdom? That may be my main question. Hope these aren't silly questions . I've looked up a few commentaries but none seemed to answer my questions. Just wondering if there are some deeper things here.

    Thanks and God bless
    The Journal of my grandson Nathaniel's courageous battle with cancer.........

    http://www.caringbridge.org/cb/input...nathanielemily



    Revelation 21:4) And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

  • #2
    hmm, good questions...I cant wait to read the opinions posted here to the question.
    I'de like to give an answer now but, honestly haven't thought or studied on this topic.

    God bless you.

    Comment


    • #3
      The "coming in His kingdom" event is synonymous with the "coming on the clouds" event (see Daniel 7). Jesus told the members of the Sanhedrin that they would see the "Son of Man coming on the clouds," and He told it to them after His transfiguration. Jesus also said "this generation will not pass away" before the "Son of Man comes on the clouds." The transfiguration was not Jesus "coming in His kingdom" nor "coming on the clouds."
      To This Day

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Debra
        Originally posted by Debra R View Post
        I've been thinking on the transfiguration..... I have some questions...... Just some thoughts going through my mind ..........
        Is this prompted by that very thoughtprovoking question, (by Bing I think) on the Mary prays for us? thread that Jesus was breaking the Isaiah command against talking to dead people?

        Firstly, again, he does on the way down the mountain in Matthew tell them it was a "vision" (ORAMA) of the kingdom - the word always means either (A) a vision of a real event in the future or (B) of a non-real event.

        Of those two options I today lean towards (A) that the vision was a window into the future, despite the comment, in Luke I think, that he was talking about the exodos he was shortly to accomplish at Jerusalem. That's Luke's eyewitness (Peter or John, since Luke must have interviewed one of the two survivors if his claim in Luke 1:2 is true) eye-view rather than Moses and Elijah's eye view. But tomorrow I might lean back to (B) that it was a vision of a non-real event.

        But I don't have days when I lean towards Jesus have raised them from Sheol for a chat and then sent them back down. . Likewise we know they weren't in heaven because Jesus taught what Luther taught about the dead being asleep (John 3:13 etc.). Which was the same as God promised Moses - God told him he would "rest with his fathers" (Deut), which seeing as Jacob "went down to Sheol" (Genesis) meant Moses was going to Jacob.

        Why did Jesus have to speak with Moses and Elijah? For that matter why was there a need for them to speak with Jesus? What was the purpose of the transfiguration?
        Did Jesus himself need to talk to Moses and Elijah? Given ch.16, unlikely. He could talk to his Father at any time - as he did in Gethsemane. The vision was specificially for the 3 disciples to show them that he was superior to the Law and the Prophets, and that Moses and Elijah (no matter their mysterious deaths and burial) could only come to the Father through him (1Co15:23, Heb11:39 again)

        And going back to chapter 16 what was meant by "the Son of Man coming into His kingdom"?
        What it always means , the Son of Man coming into his kingdom. Check out the other NT uses of the same phrase. He doesn't come twice to two different kingdoms.

        So this is why (today) I believe the vision was (A) a vision of the future - two or three other examples in the Bible. Paul and Ananias being the best known. In which case in the future Moses and Elijah needed to talk to Jesus, not him to them.
        God bless
        Steven

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Debra R View Post
          Matthew 17:1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
          2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
          3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

          Why did Jesus have to speak with Moses and Elijah? For that matter why was there a need for them to speak with Jesus? What was the purpose of the transfiguration?
          I like this question. But instead of going into a lot intellectual banter, I would like to give you my take like this;

          Regarding those two (Moses and Elijah), I feel a happiness that brings me to tears thinking about it. Jesus had been talking to the both of them all of their lives. These were two men who suffered greatly in their lives, and in their bodies for him. I would imagine these two were dying to look upon him, considering they could not do so in their lives on earth. Now in the state Jesus was in as a man, God was in a form that men were able to see and look upon him. I think he was giving them a gift to show himself for them to see him from the perspective that he may have seen them in their lives.

          I like the imagery of how they were just having a nice chat as old friends. Prior to this encounter, I'm sure all communications with him in their lives here on earth, they were prostrate eating the ground. But now here we see them just talking.

          The ability to perfectly breath comes to mind from these verses. Breathing so perfectly that I could just lay back and float. Not to say that I can, but is how I imagine it being if I were there. Sorry if that sounds weird, but for me it is part of my identification with these verses.

          OK just a touch of intellectual mumbo... Jesus, as usual, was constantly establishing with the men he brought, that he was God. This meeting was just another way in a whole string of miracles that he did this. Also, their eye witness account, and following testimony of the events, further establish this with the rest of the world as well. After all, imagine a Scribe or Pharisee in those days, or even today, hearing that Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah, and what the significance of those two are to such a Scribe and/or Pharisee.

          Comment


          • #6
            Peter writes about that day when Christ was transfigured during His earthly ministry that he, James and John were eyewitnesses to.

            2 Peter 1

            16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

            17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

            18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

            19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:


            Jesus coming in His kingdom that He refers to in Matt. 16 happened at His ascension, not at His transfiguration.

            Comment


            • #7
              Hello all
              The kingdom exists in part now, but the "coming of the kingdom" refers to when Jesus comes in his kingdom.

              A. James 2:5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?
              This is long after the ascension yet James could not say "Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?" if they were already in the kingdom.

              B. Compare the Lord's prayer:
              Matthew 6:10 Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

              Not your will be done in heaven as it isn't done on earth. Come means come.

              C. Matthew 8:11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom
              Abraham is still dead according to Hebrews 11:13,39-40, so the kingdom hasn't happened yet. Also this requires preaching to the Gentiles take place first.

              D. Matthew 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
              Then inherit, refers to a future event after the resurrection and judgment.

              E. Luke 22:18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
              Until it comes means until it comes. Because while he is in heaven he is a high priest - who cannot drink when when on duty. This teaches that Christ will come again.


              F. Matthew 26:29 I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.”
              Until that day means it hasn't happened yet. It didn't happen 43 days later, nor in AD70.

              G. The physical coming of the kingdom has physical signs:
              Luke 21:31 So also, when you see these things taking place, then you know that the kingdom of God is near.
              We haven't seen all those things happen yet.

              H. And the disciples believed Christ would come again to establish his kingdom:
              Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”7 It is not for you to know (see Mark 13:32).. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

              I. 2 Timothy 4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom:
              Therefore Jesus is to judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom. He hasn't yet judged the living or dead so the kingdom hasn't appeared either.

              Conclusion : Christ has not yet come in his kingdom. Jesus is really coming again to establish his kingdom.

              God bless
              Steven

              Comment


              • #8
                I will try to answer, just something interesting someone pointed out to me the other day.

                Jesus = The Word
                Moses = Received the Law
                Elijah = Prophet

                Jesus came to bring the law into fulfilment as the prophecies stated in the Old Testament.

                Regarding the Kingdom of Christ. The prophecies also state that He will come again to sit on the throne of His father David, this is in Jerusalem and will happen in the millennium of peace. In this kingdom, the Word (Lamb, Son of God) will reign, the whole world will be under His law as the prophecies stated.

                He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
                Luke 1:32


                And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
                Revelation 20:4


                And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
                Zechariah 14:4


                And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
                Zechariah 14:9


                And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
                Zechariah 14:17


                I can't wait

                God bless
                Phil

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Phil Fourie View Post
                  And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
                  Zechariah 14:9

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    www.bible.ca/ef/expository-matthew-17-1-7.htm

                    this was an interesting article that i found online. I had never really thought about the scriptural signifigance of the transfiguration and the appearing of Elijah and Moses. I've learned something today. Thanks.

                    The explanation in the link that i provided above seems like a good one to me.

                    God Bless
                    stacie
                    If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      [quote=Debra R;1408179]Matthew 17:1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
                      2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
                      3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.


                      I've been thinking on the transfiguration..... I have some questions...... Just some thoughts going through my mind ..........Why did Jesus have to speak with Moses and Elijah?

                      I don't think he had a need to- perhaps it was to show His power to the disciples?


                      For that matter why was there a need for them to speak with Jesus? What was the purpose of the transfiguration?

                      Again- I think the purpose was to show Jesus was who he claimed to be- the Son of God.


                      Matthew 16:28 "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

                      This can be a sticky one- but here is my opinion Jesus is telling some of these people they will not die, but receive eternal life. Why? Because they will beleive in Him as the Son of God.

                      John.3
                      1. [15] That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
                      So here we see, that Jesus will in fact give eternal life. A beleiver never really dies......Jesus is speaking of the Soul.
                      John.17
                      1. [2] As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
                      2. [3] And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
                      And going back to chapter 16 what was meant by "the Son of Man coming into His kingdom"?
                      It is salvation. Jesus tells his disciples the Kingdom of God is at hand. All Christians are born again from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light.

                      Matt.3
                      1. [2] And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
                      Matt.4
                      1. [17] From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
                      Matt.9
                      1. [35] And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
                      What did the transfiguration have to do with the kingdom?
                      To show that Jesus is God. His kingdom has indeed come.

                      God Bless

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Debra,

                        I believe that Moses and Elijah physically represent "The Law and Prophets", which both testify of Jesus as the Messiah.

                        Moses represents the Law and Elijah the Prophets.

                        That is what I think the main purpose of the transfiguration was, was yet another confirmation that Jesus was/is the Messiah.
                        WDJD - what DID Jesus do

                        He died on a cross for our sin and rose from the dead,
                        securing, for all who believe, eternal life and forgiveness of sin

                        Toolman

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Debra


                          The transfiguration included the most trusted witnesses of God to the people of Israel. Moses mainly by hearing (He gave the law by hearing the Word of God) and a most trusted profit Elijah (a seer) witnessing the Word of God by seeing (in the Spirit) and the event being a witness to the three must trusted of Jesus (at the time) that this is He who they (Moses and Elijah) witnessed of. A matter of Faith for them and us, and a matter of record, or fact.

                          They saw the risen Christ they witness Jesus rased from the dead, and sits at the Right Hand of the Father. Did He not come into His Kingdom? Being the first of.

                          The transfiguration and the witnessing of Jesus in the Kingdom at lest story wise do not seem related to me. It seems to be 2 separate issues, or events, other than related to Jesus.
                          Let there be Light

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi Steven, no I didn't read that other thread.

                            I had forgotten about Luke's account, now that is very interesting. I'll have to think on that awhile.

                            Luke 9:29 And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming.

                            30 And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah,

                            31 who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.



                            Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
                            Hi Debra Is this prompted by that very thoughtprovoking question, (by Bing I think) on the Mary prays for us? thread that Jesus was breaking the Isaiah command against talking to dead people?

                            Firstly, again, he does on the way down the mountain in Matthew tell them it was a "vision" (ORAMA) of the kingdom - the word always means either (A) a vision of a real event in the future or (B) of a non-real event.

                            Of those two options I today lean towards (A) that the vision was a window into the future, despite the comment, in Luke I think, that he was talking about the exodos he was shortly to accomplish at Jerusalem. That's Luke's eyewitness (Peter or John, since Luke must have interviewed one of the two survivors if his claim in Luke 1:2 is true) eye-view rather than Moses and Elijah's eye view. But tomorrow I might lean back to (B) that it was a vision of a non-real event.

                            But I don't have days when I lean towards Jesus have raised them from Sheol for a chat and then sent them back down. . Likewise we know they weren't in heaven because Jesus taught what Luther taught about the dead being asleep (John 3:13 etc.). Which was the same as God promised Moses - God told him he would "rest with his fathers" (Deut), which seeing as Jacob "went down to Sheol" (Genesis) meant Moses was going to Jacob.

                            Did Jesus himself need to talk to Moses and Elijah? Given ch.16, unlikely. He could talk to his Father at any time - as he did in Gethsemane. The vision was specificially for the 3 disciples to show them that he was superior to the Law and the Prophets, and that Moses and Elijah (no matter their mysterious deaths and burial) could only come to the Father through him (1Co15:23, Heb11:39 again)

                            What it always means , the Son of Man coming into his kingdom. Check out the other NT uses of the same phrase. He doesn't come twice to two different kingdoms.

                            So this is why (today) I believe the vision was (A) a vision of the future - two or three other examples in the Bible. Paul and Ananias being the best known. In which case in the future Moses and Elijah needed to talk to Jesus, not him to them.
                            God bless
                            Steven
                            The Journal of my grandson Nathaniel's courageous battle with cancer.........

                            http://www.caringbridge.org/cb/input...nathanielemily



                            Revelation 21:4) And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thank you Phil


                              Originally posted by Phil Fourie View Post
                              I will try to answer, just something interesting someone pointed out to me the other day.

                              Jesus = The Word
                              Moses = Received the Law
                              Elijah = Prophet

                              Jesus came to bring the law into fulfilment as the prophecies stated in the Old Testament.

                              Regarding the Kingdom of Christ. The prophecies also state that He will come again to sit on the throne of His father David, this is in Jerusalem and will happen in the millennium of peace. In this kingdom, the Word (Lamb, Son of God) will reign, the whole world will be under His law as the prophecies stated.

                              He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
                              Luke 1:32

                              And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
                              Revelation 20:4

                              And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
                              Zechariah 14:4

                              And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
                              Zechariah 14:9

                              And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
                              Zechariah 14:17

                              I can't wait

                              God bless
                              Phil
                              I can't wait either!
                              The Journal of my grandson Nathaniel's courageous battle with cancer.........

                              http://www.caringbridge.org/cb/input...nathanielemily



                              Revelation 21:4) And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

                              Comment

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