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  • Can salvation be lost?

    I've read( but can't find the verse at this time )that at the time we are saved we are sealed. Recently I've read in Revelations about the lukewarm christians that the Lord says he will spew out of his mouth. I'm confused.

  • #2
    This is a very debatable subject. It's called the OSAS debate. Be prepared for either a long discussion, or to be refered to previous threads. Here is one that I found (but did not read or take part in) just by typing in OSAS in the search feature.

    OSAS Discussion CLICK HERE

    May God convict your heart according to His will.
    Tami (always learning, continually growing, constantly seeking)

    Revelation 19:13 "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."

    Comment


    • #3
      I believe the cross is the 2nd part to the beginning of salvation.

      The first part is your initial repentance and acknowledging that you are a sinful lost fallen creature.This is also an active or ongoing process, we have to repent each time we fail or each time new sin in us is revealed by His word.

      The second part is the cross or calvary, it is the sacrifice offered by God to restore His fallen creation and creatures. This is a one time thing no other ways to use this other than a ransom paid by Christ for our healing and restoration to the Creator, there is no other way.

      The third part is abiding in Him/His word, walking in faith or in the light of His revelations in His word. This is an active ongoing part to salvation where one will grow in the likeness, holiness and perfection of the Lord.
      (no one who is not perfect and holy will stand before God)
      Christ sacrifice and His works and words on earth, they are our ladder to heaven, each step we take or each time we grow in our knowledge of Him and His word it brings us closer to heaven and is transforming us each new step we take up on this ladder.
      The path or ladder is narrow and leads to one narrow gate (Christ) our Advocate in heaven and our Redeemer, our Savior, our Shepard, our Teacher, our Gate to fellowship with the Creator.

      Now if one stays focussed on the one who hung on the cross (Christ Jesus) and abide in obedience to His word AND keep repenting and confessing ones sins as they are revealed to us by us abiding in His word....
      Then you have found salvation and, if you keep abiding in Him/His words, then you wont lose it, His words will keep/guard you! (seal you)...if one wonders away from the 'WORD' then they were not in His word correctly (fooled) to begin with or they were mislead by men.

      Some think they or someone they know have lost their salvation, but I believe such a person never really had it to begin with.
      (nothing in heaven or on earth can take something out of the hand of Christ that the Father has put there)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by swarr View Post
        I've read( but can't find the verse at this time )that at the time we are saved we are sealed. Recently I've read in Revelations about the lukewarm christians that the Lord says he will spew out of his mouth. I'm confused.
        The verse/s you are looking for are found in 2 Cor 1:22; Eph 1:13, 4:30.

        While I believe that the Bible teaches that Christians are eternally secure from the time they are sealed by the Holy Spirit at conversion, the Bible also recognizes that the Church will be a mixture of true and false believers (eg. the lukewarm Laodiceans) and so contains many warnings to those who would profess Christianity but do not show the fruits of the Spirit or deny the faith they once professed. God knew that the doctrine of grace and eternal security would be used by some to promote the idea that one can essentially 'believe' and then live as he pleases and still have assurance of salvation. To counter this false understanding of grace, the NT contains many warnings to professing believers to persevere and continue in the Gospel as evidence of geniune saving faith. If a person claims to be a Christian and yet lives like the devil or denies Christ (His person and work) the NT provides no assurance to such a 'believer'.

        Cheers
        Leigh

        Comment


        • #5
          Our pastor had a sermon on this one time. His words were “We can’t be lukewarm Christians; we have to be hot for Christ!”

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by walked View Post
            Some think they or someone they know have lost their salvation, but I believe such a person never really had it to begin with.
            (nothing in heaven or on earth can take something out of the hand of Christ that the Father has put there)
            Below are links to 4 case studies of men who departed from faith in Christ. If these four men were not truly and genuinely saved at one time then I don't know what possible evidence one would need to see that the teaching of OSAS is incorrect.

            Charles Templeton http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?...2&postcount=99

            Bron Clifford http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?...&postcount=119

            Bill Bradley http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?...&postcount=136

            An unnamed Pastor http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?...&postcount=186

            .
            If you believe what you like in the gospel, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. - Augustine

            Comment


            • #7
              It started with the verse:

              Rev 3:16
              So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.


              Captain Fin said:
              Our pastor had a sermon on this one time. His words were “We can’t be lukewarm Christians; we have to be hot for Christ!”

              I think the sermon should be: "Christians be hot OR cold"

              I heard someone teach on this. Here in our modern culture we see hot as good and cold as not so good. Yet in a desert environment. Lukewarm water is not useful, cold will refresh you or hot can be used for cooking. Here the point is to this church is that they are not useful. Remember in verse 15 it says "I know your deeds (the things you have done)".

              That is why Jesus wants hot or cold as in Rev 3:15
              I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!


              It is like they lost their salty taste, so you throw it out.

              Matthew 5:13 You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out

              Kylism

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by DSK View Post
                Below are links to 4 case studies of men who departed from faith in Christ. If these four men were not truly and genuinely saved at one time then I don't know what possible evidence one would need to see that the teaching of OSAS is incorrect.

                Charles Templeton http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?...2&postcount=99

                Bron Clifford http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?...&postcount=119

                Bill Bradley http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?...&postcount=136

                An unnamed Pastor http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?...&postcount=186

                .
                I go by the word of God, as to what to believe.
                He says nothing can take out of the hand of Christ what He has place in the hand of Christ.
                If these men where in the hand of Christ, then they still are!...If they aren't now, then they never were!....no matter what you believe by reading other mens words, only believe Gods word and, you will be standing on firm unshakable ground friend.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by walked View Post
                  I go by the word of God, as to what to believe.
                  He says nothing can take out of the hand of Christ what He has place in the hand of Christ.
                  If these men where in the hand of Christ, then they still are!...If they aren't now, then they never were!....no matter what you believe by reading other mens words, only believe Gods word and, you will be standing on firm unshakable ground friend.
                  amen ! Im so glad my salvation doesnt depend on me but the blood of Christ , period !

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    As I was studying this morning in II Thessalonians I saw two phrases.

                    2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

                    2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

                    Verse 10 is refering to those who will be deceived by the Wicked. (2:8)

                    Verse 13 refers to those who God has chosen to Salvation through sanctification.

                    In Verse 10, people will PERISH because they don't Love the truth.
                    In Verse 13 no one will be saved unless they believe the truth.

                    Two different events, but most people just assume love of the truth and belief of the truth are one in the same.

                    You can believe the truth and that belief or faith will put you on the road to salvation through sanctification. (no salvation apart from sanctification)

                    Yet, verse 13, along with most pertaining verses in the Bible clearly tells us unless we LOVE the truth, we will be decieved.

                    So, a person has to believe the truth for God to begin His work of Salvation but a person has to LOVE the truth for that work to be completed so that they have true understanding and knowledge of earthly events.

                    Can a person lose thier salvation? Well, the question should be can a person who receives the truth quit receiving it and leave the things of God behind and go back into a worldly lifestyle?

                    I think most of us answer that to the affirmative. In my 40 plus years of following the Lord I've seen it happen scores of times.

                    Is a person who abandons their faith condemned? No. Once The Holy Spirit makes his abode in our spirit He stays.

                    Will a person who abandons thier faith live lives full of wisdom and understanding and blessings and not be deceived by the wiles of Satan?

                    NO. This person, although having at one time faith in the truth never develops a love of the truth and will never receive a full reward, but they will never be condemned with the sinners.

                    I really don't see the once saved always saved issue to be confussing. We just need to let the Lord take us to a new and higher level of understanding. I think the Calvinist and the Arminians are right and wrong.
                    In Christ,
                    Dave


                    Revelations 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by swarr View Post
                      I've read( but can't find the verse at this time )that at the time we are saved we are sealed. Recently I've read in Revelations about the lukewarm christians that the Lord says he will spew out of his mouth. I'm confused.
                      Can salvation be "lost" in the same way I might lose my keys, or lose equity in my house? No.

                      Can salvation we renounced, or thrown away? Yes.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        "Having started from a false premise, it is easy to reach a false conclusion. The false premise most who believe that salvation can be lost is that they had anything to do with their salvation in the first place. They didn't. It is by grace that we are saved, through faith (Ephesians 2:8) and we supply neither the grace nor the faith. God gives us both, in making us alive in the spirit where we were previously dead in sin. It is interesting to note that most people who believe in conditional security never think their own salvation is in jeopardy, it is always that unknown third party who might "take license to sin." I explained that above. Only those who don't really understand the gospel would take such license, and if you don't understand it, you can't believe it is true, at any level: intellectually, emotionally, or spiritually."
                        Revelation 3:3
                        .....If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Illumined View Post
                          "Having started from a false premise, it is easy to reach a false conclusion. The false premise most who believe that salvation can be lost is that they had anything to do with their salvation in the first place. They didn't. It is by grace that we are saved, through faith (Ephesians 2:8) and we supply neither the grace nor the faith. God gives us both, in making us alive in the spirit where we were previously dead in sin. It is interesting to note that most people who believe in conditional security never think their own salvation is in jeopardy, it is always that unknown third party who might "take license to sin." I explained that above. Only those who don't really understand the gospel would take such license, and if you don't understand it, you can't believe it is true, at any level: intellectually, emotionally, or spiritually."
                          We don't supply the faith?

                          If we have nothing to do with anything, why would any of the New Testament have been written? If we can do nothing, and actually do nothing, regarding our salvation, why would Jesus have given us the Great Commission?

                          Unless I'm totally misreading what you wrote, it seems that you're saying there is absolutely nothing we do - nor can do - to either accept or reject salvation. And that flies in the face of everything Jesus said.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by just4christ View Post
                            amen ! Im so glad my salvation doesnt depend on me but the blood of Christ , period !
                            Your salvation does depend on the blood of Christ but,
                            You are to be able to see the evidence of the blood of Christ in your day to day life, this evidence comes from your spirit being reborn, your spirit being reborn will give you an inner desire to please God.
                            From there Gods word says it is impossible to please God with out faith, this comes again from your reborn spirit (ye must be born again) Gods word say we are to love God with all of our heart, mind and our might. again the evidence of this love is found in our obedience, Gods word says if you love me you will keep my commands.

                            So our reborn spirit comes from our calling of God to come out of this fallen world and to gather to His Son to receive the blood of Christ to cover our sin from the eyes of God, our reborn spirit an our remission of sin both come from God. And the word of God gives us a way to confirm if we have salvation or not by looking for the evidence that we do love Him, if we love Him we will obey Him and, we need to have faith to please Him, this love and this faith comes from our reborn spirit, this spirit creates evidence in our lives that we want to please Him by motivating us to please God.

                            So it isn't inactive faith, you don't just do nothing, your reborn spirit will give you desires, your work is to respond to these desires by choosing to please God and with faith, choosing to love God with obedience and, choosing to fear Him, these things are actions that you choose to do, you don't do nothing.
                            You cant choose to please God by doing nothing.
                            You cant choose to love and obey God by doing nothing.
                            You cant choose to fear God by doing nothing.
                            God has reborn our spirit to give us desires to do all of these things that He requires of us and, they are all found through Christ blood and, His Holy Spirit was sent to earth to guide and comfort us in our daily lives to accomplish the works that come from the desires of our reborn spirits.
                            /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

                            The gospel is simple, all of this sounds complicated and confusing because it is man trying to explain it here in mans words.

                            But, it is a simple plan if you ask God to explain it to you, if you ask Him, His Holy Spirit WILL explain it to you with out any confusion that will be found in man explaining it to you....this is called seeking Him, continuing to seek Him.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by swarr View Post
                              I've read( but can't find the verse at this time )that at the time we are saved we are sealed. Recently I've read in Revelations about the lukewarm christians that the Lord says he will spew out of his mouth. I'm confused.
                              The basic thing to remember regardless of which you come to believe is that salvation can never be used as a ticket to sin. Christ died to forgive sin, not condone it. So if you are ever in a church that does a sermon on this subject. And tries to make it sound like we can commit any sin, and it's okay. Then the doctrine they teach is wrong.

                              Also there is the works issue. There is a difference between works for the kingdom, and carnal works. So when the sermon for works come out. Keep in mind there are kingdom works that are required of us.
                              Note: By request I can only post and see the tech section of this forum. So don't respond to my posts in the other sections because I cannot see them so I cannot respond. You can PM me if you need to.
                              My site: http://www.yecheadquarters.org/

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