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  • the saved/the damned

    On these boards, I see alot of people saying that they are saved, or that Christians are saved, etc. I dont believe that a person can be saved until death; I find it a very interesting belief.

    My question is, are non Christians actively damned then? If a person can be "saved" while still on earth, cant they also be damned?
    "Death is not the end of life, but a change in life"

    "Innocence is ugly
    to the one who is guilty"
    -10 Years

    Holbrook Johnson: "Those who reason are lost."
    GK Chesterton: "Those who do not reason are not worth finding."

  • #2
    Originally posted by GothicAngel View Post
    On these boards, I see alot of people saying that they are saved, or that Christians are saved, etc. I dont believe that a person can be saved until death; I find it a very interesting belief.
    I don't believe people can be fully saved until resurrection.

    This is pulled from my past post:

    1) We are saved (past tense) from our sins and spiritual death (Luk 1:79, cf. 15:24; Rom 7:6; cf. Gal 1:4; 2Ti 1:9; Tit 3:5; cf. 1Jn 1:9).

    2) We will be (future tense) saved from physical death and wrath (i.e. 1Co 15:54; Rom 5:9).

    3) We are pressing on (present tense) and working out (present tense) our salvation with fear and trembling, with the "prize" in mind (Php 2:13, 3:14).

    My question is, are non Christians actively damned then? If a person can be "saved" while still on earth, cant they also be damned?
    Depends on how you define "damned." Someone asked a question like this on another forum. He explained:
    In particular, what caught my attention was the re-interpretation of hell they both presented—hell is seen as here on earth, as something that people suffer through in everyday life. Hell is bodily and physical. Hell is not necessarily or only a metaphysical condition beyond time and place.
    I responded:

    From a Biblical perspective, I find this hell-on-Earth doctrine completely lacking. The same thing happens with most eternal torment advocates: they display ignorance to the Biblical concepts of sheol/hades and geenna (often translated hell), speaking about “hell” from a culturally diffused perspective. After all, the whole point of post-resurrection judgment is that too many people get away with horrible things on Earth and go unpunished.
    “16[The] ungodly by their words and deeds summoned death; considering him a friend, they pined away and made a covenant with him, because they are fit to belong to his company. 1For they have reasoned unsoundly, saying to themselves, ‘short and sorrowful is our life, and there is no remedy when a life comes to its end, and no one has been known to return from Hades. 2For we were born by mere chance, and hereafter we shall be as though for the breath in our nostrils is smoke, and reason is a spark kindled by the beating of our hearts; 3when it is extinguished, the body will turn to ashes, and the spirit will dissolve like empty air. … 6Come, therefore, let us enjoy the good things that exist, and make use of the creation to the full as in youth. 7Let us take our fill of costly wine and perfumes, and let no flower of spring pass us by. … 12Let us oppress the righteous poor man; let us not spare the widow or regard the gray hairs of the age. … 16We are considered by him [the righteous] as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father. 17Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; 18for if the righteous man is God’s child, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries. 19Let us test him with insult and torture, so that we my find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. 20Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected” (Wisdom of Solomon, chapter 1, 2).
    Many people do not live in a hell-on-Earth, but a paradise; many of the righteous, in contrast, suffers under the hands of the wicked in a purgatory. The author of the Wisdom of Solomon’s solution is judgment:
    “20[The wicked] will come with dread when their sins are reckoned up, and their lawless deeds will convict them to their face. 1Then the righteous will stand with great confidence in the presence of those who have oppressed them and those who make light of their labors. 2When the unrighteous see them, they will be shaken with dreadful fear, and they will be amazed at the unexpected salvation of the righteous. 3They will speak to one another in repentance, and in anguish of spirit they will groan, and say, ‘These are persons we once held in derision and made a byword of reproach—fools that we were!’ (Wisdom of Solomon, chapter 4, 5).
    I think the word “hell” needs to be wiped off the pulpit completely. However, I think the belief that Jesus will judge “the secrets of men” (Rom 2:16), “render to every man according to his deeds” (Rom 2:6), so that “he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting” (Gal 6:8) still has a place in Christianity. Hell-on-Earth won’t cut it; perhaps a doctrine of eternal torment, neither. Though I believe judgment still has a place in Christianity, this does not mean, however, we should run around telling people to become Christians or else they will burn, as others have done in the past. Judgment is more of an assurance to the righteous than a warning to the wicked, if you ask me.

    Personally, I say if we must, we should simply talk about judgment; let each individual decide what that means. I like Wright’s description:
    “The word ‘hell’ is a shorthand for several biblical themes which converge at the point where (i) God has promised to put the entire world right at last, showing up evil as what it is, the corruption and destruction of what is good, and the distortion of the good humanness which God made and loves, and therefore judging it so that it no longer has the power to infect his good creation; (ii) God will finally say to those who have persisted in their deliberate collusion with the powers of corruption, destruction and dehumanization (i.e. ‘sin’) that there can be no place for them in the glorious new world that he is making, so that (iii) God’s new world will not have in it ‘a concentration camp in the midst of a beautiful landscape’, as some earlier visions of ‘hell’ have supposed, but rather the celebration (1 Corinthians 20.28) that ‘God will be all in all’” (“Neither is The Final Destination”).
    Right now, though, I think a doctrine of annihilation is the best interpretation: those who have no place in New Creation will simply be destroyed. But maybe we need to reevaluate who exactly has a place in New Creation and who doesn’t. I will touch on these issues in my post in the future. I plan to examine the Scriptures about judgment and the doctrines of eternal torment, universal salvation, and annihilation, if I get the time. These subjects have always interested me.

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    • #3
      Just for your consideration, John 3:16-18:

      For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

      So, not "damned," per se...but certainly on the road to it. If you are condemned, and there is no intervention, you will pay your due, as it were.
      θεοφιλε

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      • #4
        Originally posted by GothicAngel View Post
        On these boards, I see alot of people saying that they are saved, or that Christians are saved, etc. I dont believe that a person can be saved until death; I find it a very interesting belief.

        My question is, are non Christians actively damned then? If a person can be "saved" while still on earth, cant they also be damned?

        There are three parts to salvation, but all 3 are fully realized at the moment of salvation:

        1) Justification -the moment one trusts Christ to forgive them of all sin
        2) Sanctification - the growth period of a Christian where he/she strives to be Christlike and become mature
        3) Glorification - when we receive our glorified bodies at the Judgment Seat of Christ

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by GothicAngel View Post
          On these boards, I see alot of people saying that they are saved, or that Christians are saved, etc. I dont believe that a person can be saved until death; I find it a very interesting belief.

          My question is, are non Christians actively damned then? If a person can be "saved" while still on earth, cant they also be damned?
          Hi-

          It is true that we can never know for sure who is saved and who is not.

          Matt.13
          1. [25] But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
          2. [26] But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
          3. [27] So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
          4. [29] But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
          5. [30] Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
          6. [36] Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
          7. [38] The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
          8. [40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
          Now no one is damned until they actually physically die.

          Heb.9
          1. [27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
          Anwone can come to salvation before death at any time.....after death it is to late. Why? Becuase they never beleived on Jesus Christ.

          Now, I do beleive a true child of God can know that they are saved becuase God gives them His promise.

          2Cor.1
          1. [22] Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
          Eph.1
          1. [13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
          Eph.4
          1. [30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
          So, God children are sealed....we do have a promise of salvation when we come to faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord. God can and does confirm this in a beleivers heart. But, others can not be certain who is redeemed until they reach heaven.

          God Bless
          Last edited by AlainaJ; Oct 15th 2007, 07:03 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Theophilus View Post
            Just for your consideration, John 3:16-18:

            For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

            So, not "damned," per se...but certainly on the road to it. If you are condemned, and there is no intervention, you will pay your due, as it were.
            Hello, friend. Not to be nitpicky, but the word "damned" isn't in the Bible. It is a word the KJV has used in place of condemnation in certain passages. So, to be consistent, this passage would read, "...whoever does not believe stands damned already..."

            I don't believe we are "on our way to damnation". In our unbelief we were already "damned" (as the opening post said and as this passage you've brought to bear says very clearly), but Jesus came to take away the sin of the world. Once our eyes are open to that truth, we will no longer live under the condemnation which we wallow in in our unbelief, and we will also begin to be delivered from sin itself. What do you think?
            Our destiny is to find our identity within the circumference of His identity--to express His nature, character, etc. ever revealing more of Him. ~ R&D Prinzing

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't believe we are "on our way to damnation". In our unbelief we were already "damned" (as the opening post said and as this passage you've brought to bear says very clearly), but Jesus came to take away the sin of the world. Once our eyes are open to that truth, we will no longer live under the condemnation which we wallow in in our unbelief, and we will also begin to be delivered from sin itself. What do you think?[/quote]
              Excellent point- we are all born into damnation- we all are going to hell...but Jesus is our way out.

              Praise God

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by AlainaJ View Post
                Excellent point- we are all born into damnation- we all are going to hell...but Jesus is our way out.

                Praise God

                Hi Alaina. I agree that Jesus is the Way. However, I see that the condmenation we are born into is sin and death. We all sin, and we all die. Jesus is the Way into righteousness and life.
                Our destiny is to find our identity within the circumference of His identity--to express His nature, character, etc. ever revealing more of Him. ~ R&D Prinzing

                Comment


                • #9
                  In Adam all die......................

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by AlainaJ View Post
                    I don't believe we are "on our way to damnation". In our unbelief we were already "damned" (as the opening post said and as this passage you've brought to bear says very clearly), but Jesus came to take away the sin of the world. Once our eyes are open to that truth, we will no longer live under the condemnation which we wallow in in our unbelief, and we will also begin to be delivered from sin itself. What do you think?
                    Excellent point- we are all born into damnation- we all are going to hell...but Jesus is our way out.

                    Praise God
                    I would disagree that we are "born into damnation." That would mean all infants who die will be in hell. Jesus said we must become as little children in order to enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 18:3).


                    [CENTER][SIZE=2]A FEW MINUTES WITH SOMEONE WHO LOVES YOU

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mikebr View Post
                      In Adam all die......................
                      in Christ all have life.....

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by spm62 View Post
                        in Christ all have life.....
                        Yes we do!

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Matt14 View Post
                          I would disagree that we are "born into damnation." That would mean all infants who die will be in hell. Jesus said we must become as little children in order to enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 18:3).
                          EEEKKKK- I said that wrong.....we are born with a sin nature.

                          If an infant deies before a certain age- we assume that baby goes to heaven...but at some point we all need to make a consious chose to choose salvation through Christ.

                          Sometimes...typing your thoughts is hard

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                          • #14
                            The OP looks like another hit and run post
                            If you believe what you like in the gospel, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. - Augustine

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by AlainaJ View Post
                              EEEKKKK- I said that wrong.....we are born with a sin nature.

                              If an infant deies before a certain age- we assume that baby goes to heaven...but at some point we all need to make a consious chose to choose salvation through Christ.

                              Sometimes...typing your thoughts is hard

                              I`v learned not to assume anything..

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