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Heaven without Jesus?

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  • Heaven without Jesus?

    The critical question for our generation—and for every generation—is this: If you could have heaven, with no sickness, and with all the friends you ever had on earth, and all the food you ever liked, and all the leisure activities you ever enjoyed, and all the natural beauties you ever say, all the physical pleasures you ever tasted, and no human conflict or any natural disasters, could you be satisfied with heaven, if Christ was not there?
    a quote by John Piper

  • #2
    No. Here's why.

    Heaven (and all that that implies) is not merely, or even primarily, a place where all the pleasures listed above are present. Heaven, first and foremost, is a place where God is glorified. And as a human being and a creature of the Creator, the glorification of God not only is my fullest pleasure, but without it, no other pleasures exist.

    If Jesus Christ were not part of the eternal equation that would mean that heaven was somehow achieved without Him being necessary. Which would mean that heaven happened under the rule of an unjust God; a God who allowed sinners (like myself) to be vindicated without due payment and without justice having been satisfied.

    A Heaven without Christ would be the product of the most heinous injustice imaginable, that of sin eternally unrecompensed; a place where God Himself was proven a liar and a fraud, and thus the source and totality of our own existence proven wholly vain and without any true purpose at all.

    In other words, a Heaven without Christ would be Hell.
    Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will

    __________________

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    • #3
      Originally posted by mikebr View Post
      a quote by John Piper
      Sorry, but who is John Piper? Is he making the point that the NT teaches that Christ is coming down to earth not people going up? Or is it some other point?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
        Sorry, but who is John Piper? Is he making the point that the NT teaches that Christ is coming down to earth not people going up? Or is it some other point?

        I think he is simply trying to get folks to come face to face with some realities. Where is their love... all the stuff... or Christ Himself.


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        • #5
          Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
          Sorry, but who is John Piper?
          http://www.desiringgod.org/

          That's Piper's website.

          In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

          Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

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          • #6
            I'd leave all that other stuff and just take Jesus Christ.

            If I spent eternity at the feet of the Lord Jesus doing nothing else but worshiping Him, I'd be one happy person.
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            • #7
              No where would be Heaven without Jesus Christ. I agree with DaveS.

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              • #8
                No. Christ is our creator and we are inherently filled with a desire to know our meaning and creator. Some people fool themselves into thinking they are alone because they don't want to face their creator. The hole that allows us to feel pain and weakness and feel fear and doubt is due to the fact that we are physically seperated from our creator. We can't gaze upon Him and talk to Him

                Transversely, I think Whispering Grace takes it too far with the assertion that she'd give up everything else and be happy worshipping Christ at His feet for eternity. This could be Satan deceiving me with what I'm about to say, so if it is please jump in and correct me.

                I believe God created this planet for us and he created others for us. For heaven to be heaven I think it has to have Christ, but other humans as well. It has to have natural beauties and attraction. To deny that these things aren't needed for there to be a heaven is to deny what God made in us. God said His creation was VERY good only after there were animals, beautiful wonders and multiple humans. We are created in God's image which I believe is what gives us our appreciation of beauty, of each other, etc. God created us to glorify Him. One of the main ways he gives as an example of glorifying Him is to love othrs and treat others well. Heaven is this earth without pain, suffering, sin, etc and with our Creator finally with us and dwelling with us. I believe that for heaven to be heaven, all those things must be present because when God created us, He created us with that tpye of spirit.

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                • #9
                  God created 2 loves to be fulfilled within us.

                  To love God above all things, with all of our being.

                  And to love our fellow humans just as much as we love ourselves (and as much as Christ loves them).

                  I would not be satisfied if both of those loves went unfulfilled, because that is the what God created me to be.

                  So a "heaven" without Christ would be unsatisfying. A "heaven" without my fellow humans would be equally as unsatisfying.

                  Paul also speaks of creations longing for redemption and how we ourselves groan waiting for redemption (Romans 8), so I think a "heaven" that still had the ills (sickness, death, etc.) of our current fallen world would also be unsatisfying.

                  So, IMO, the question is somewhat loaded. I get what Piper's trying to say but I don't think the question holds up under biblical scrutiny.

                  My 2c.
                  WDJD - what DID Jesus do

                  He died on a cross for our sin and rose from the dead,
                  securing, for all who believe, eternal life and forgiveness of sin

                  Toolman

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Toolman View Post
                    God created 2 loves to be fulfilled within us.

                    To love God above all things, with all of our being.

                    And to love our fellow humans just as much as we love ourselves (and as much as Christ loves them).

                    I would not be satisfied if both of those loves went unfulfilled, because that is the what God created me to be.

                    So a "heaven" without Christ would be unsatisfying. A "heaven" without my fellow humans would be equally as unsatisfying.

                    Paul also speaks of creations longing for redemption and how we ourselves groan waiting for redemption (Romans 8), so I think a "heaven" that still had the ills (sickness, death, etc.) of our current fallen world would also be unsatisfying.

                    So, IMO, the question is somewhat loaded. I get what Piper's trying to say but I don't think the question holds up under biblical scrutiny.

                    My 2c.
                    That's kinda what I was saying in regards to Whispering Grace's comment. It's my opinion and I hope I'm right and not being led astray.

                    It is a loaded question which makes it seem like it's one or the other. There's also the question of whether or not that world or heaven he's describing is where I go when I die or one where I was put there from my conception. Either way, I would still have a hole in my heart as my purpose of knowing my creator and why I was created would be a mystery.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Whispering Grace View Post
                      I'd leave all that other stuff and just take Jesus Christ.

                      If I spent eternity at the feet of the Lord Jesus doing nothing else but worshiping Him, I'd be one happy person.

                      Actually I agree with this, because of this reason

                      Matt 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

                      12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

                      Jesus, is saying that we must not put anything before the kingdom of God, and likewise before HIM.

                      There is not friend like Jesus, there is not a blessing(happiness) that comes from anyone like they come from Jesus.

                      I truly could sit at his feet alone and be satisfied
                      It takes love to embrace those ones who are weak, and strength to endure the weakness, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Toolman View Post
                        So a "heaven" without Christ would be unsatisfying. A "heaven" without my fellow humans would be equally as unsatisfying.
                        Toolman, you know I love ya, man, but I can't for the life of me ever fathom thinking heaven with Christ alone would be unsatisfying. The thought makes me shudder!

                        Does that mean I don't love my fellow man? Of course not. But to say Christ is not all-satisfying truly boggles my mind.
                        My Blog

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by always View Post
                          Actually I agree with this, because of this reason

                          Matt 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

                          12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

                          Jesus, is saying that we must not put anything before the kingdom of God, and likewise before HIM.

                          There is not friend like Jesus, there is not a blessing(happiness) that comes from anyone like they come from Jesus.

                          I truly could sit at his feet alone and be satisfied
                          I think you are taking that verse out of context from what Whispering Grace said. I believe that you put God first and there is no thing or person on this planet that I could not walk away from without thinking twice if I felt compelled to do so by God. What Toolman and I seem to be saying is full human satisfaction needs others. Jesus could find a way to fill that satisfaction because he is God and can do anything, but the way we are presently constructed in our souls, we have a need for our fellow man because that's how God created us. It was more a comment on the question being loaded and slightly confrontational in a way where it makes you feel guilty if you have love for things on this earth you should minimize that love to nothing and think only of Christ. Truth be told, many of God's commands require us to think about our neighbors and think about them a lot.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Whispering Grace View Post
                            Toolman, you know I love ya, man, but I can't for the life of me ever fathom thinking heaven with Christ alone would be unsatisfying. The thought makes me shudder!

                            Does that mean I don't love my fellow man? Of course not. But to say Christ is not all-satisfying truly boggles my mind.
                            I understand WG and you know I love you also

                            Christ is all satisfying and it is actually Him who gave us others to love and redemption to joy in, so that is why I say Piper's question is somewhat loaded. The loadedness of the question leads to a dichotomy that is not in scripture.

                            But here is how I perceive things:

                            When I see my fellow man, I see Jesus. I see the connectedness that God has created in us, that we truly are ONE Body... HIS BODY!

                            So, a "heaven" where Jesus' Body is missing would not be a "heaven" to me. It would be incomplete and I think Jesus would agree, since its His Body

                            Likewise, a "heaven" that is still plagued with sickness, death and sin would be unsatisfying as the redemption of Christ would be incomplete. I think Jesus would fully agree (Paul said as much in Romans 8).

                            To me it seems selfish to say that I could be satisfied with just me and Jesus in heaven. I would desire for others to experience Him in His fullness and knowing they were not would not be satisfying to me. I long for others to know Him and I look forward to when His redemption is complete and that longing will be satisfied

                            For me to "have Jesus all to myself" would be selfish. That is my personal conviction.

                            It seems to me that both Paul and Moses shared my sentiment, in wishing themselves cursed that others might know Him. Its not centered on what I can get but concerned with others.

                            To make certain dichotomies between Jesus and the people Jesus loves and the redemption He purchased with His blood is IMO a futile endeavor. But that may just be me
                            WDJD - what DID Jesus do

                            He died on a cross for our sin and rose from the dead,
                            securing, for all who believe, eternal life and forgiveness of sin

                            Toolman

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                            • #15
                              I never said I desire to have Jesus all to myself. I long for others to glory in Him as I do.
                              My Blog

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