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  • #46
    Originally posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
    So then dear brother, how does Romans 3 fit into your hermeneutics if no one seeks after God without God's changing their mind first?

    Romans 3:10-12
    10 as it is written,
    "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
    11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
    THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
    12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
    THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
    THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
    As Paul makes clear RbG... all, be you Jew or Gentile, are under sin. All of us stand guilty before God. That was his point in Romans 1 when speaking of the Gentile and then in chapter 2 when telling them... you who judge are also without excuse. He goes on making it clear... it ain't about Jew or Gentile but it is about those that do. He then make it clear that those that rest in the Law are resting in the wrong thing. It isn't a circumcision of the flesh that matters a whit. This requires a circumcision of the heart. Something that happens to the heart (inwardly) and not the body member (outwardly)... it is that inward that benefits you.

    Are we (Jews) any better? Paul's answer was a FIRM "no". All are under sin... be it Jew or Gentile. Paul is still talking about the uselessness of the Law in regard to salvation. Even though you have the Law... that alone is nothing and you are still under sin. Apart from the Law... we have righteousness revealed and that is revealed through faith in Jesus. To whom? All who believe. Not all whom God made believe... but simply all who believe. Jew or Gentile... there is no partiality with God.

    You can pick that piece out and try and make it into what it ain't... but what I have said here is the context in which Paul speaks and uses that passage.


    Visit our new website
    ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

    A.W. Tozer said,
    "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

    GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

    Comment


    • #47
      To further what PP posted. After Paul's told of "the unfaithfulness" (without excuse, none worthy), he tells us in chp 4 of Abrahams model faithfulness. It is quite evident that man is able to do something with himself. God made Abraham righteous, but not before the fact of his faith in action. God has done everything for man to respond to Him and attain that righteousness.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Teke View Post
        To further what PP posted. After Paul's told of "the unfaithfulness" (without excuse, none worthy), he tells us in chp 4 of Abrahams model faithfulness. It is quite evident that man is able to do something with himself. God made Abraham righteous, but not before the fact of his faith in action. God has done everything for man to respond to Him and attain that righteousness.
        Which is exactly how folks can very easily reconcile Paul's writings with the writing of James.


        Visit our new website
        ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

        A.W. Tozer said,
        "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

        GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

        Comment


        • #49
          Greetings,

          Does this ability to perform these acts of faith, e.g. turning away from sin, come without help from on high? Indeed there is a command to obedience, but to obey is not possible apart from He Who is in me. If I am relying on my own strength to keep me from committing sin, then I am doomed to failure.

          Lu 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

          1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

          1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

          1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

          God is providential in all things, even in the sin we commit. That does not mean that God entices us, or causes us to sin, but sin is a necessary part of growing in grace and faith. Sometimes we have opportunities to sin but lack any inner compulsion to pursue them; at other times we experience an inner compulsion but opportunity is lacking or we are providentially protected from taking it. But when temptation, desire, and opportunity coincide, the evil has come. So it was for David (2Sam 11:1ff); so it may be for us. Then it is all we can do to stand. Indeed to remain standing is a great fruit of GRACE in us, but not from us. We cannot wage this battle without the grace of God. The battle is to by waged by us IN THE LORD. We cannot rely on our own resources (so-called our own faith) to resist the temptation that comes from our own flesh, the world, and very often from Satan.

          God sometimes allows His children to fall in sin so they, like David will acknowledge, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Every sin we commit is against God. The result of David’s great sin was a broken and contrite heart, and this is what the Lord requires of us, that we acknowledge our sinfulness, and in true repentance and contrition mourn with great tears and bitterness over the evil we are all capable of.

          Have you ever noticed, or perhaps experienced the ache of falling into the same sin again and again? We sometimes look at this as a bad habit that must be broken, but we ought to see this as God allowing us to succumb again and again because we have yet to learn that when we commit sin it is against God. God says “My grace is sufficient for you”, do we rely on His grace to overcome when we are tempted to sin, or do we think we can stand in our own faith?

          1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

          Many Blessings,
          RW

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Pleroo View Post
            And how does one keep from falling into a fatalistic life-view which could lead to apathy, while still fully acknowledging God's sovereignty? It almost seems like one has to be able to see both sides of the coin at the same time - one side is to take responsibility for utilizing the means of grace that God has provided us with, while the other side is to acknowledge that it is only God's working within us which causes us to desire that grace.
            I struggle with this apparent paradox all the time! Bit I have found this Scripture helpful:-

            "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 20-21

            "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, to God our Saviour, who alone is wise, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen." Jude 24

            Possibly the "ultimate" "Both/and"?!?

            God keeps us and the only way we can keep ourselves is by building ourselves up on our faith (yet it is Christ who will build His Church), praying - yet in the Holy Spirit - and looking to Christ! So it's all of Him!

            Comment


            • #51
              Job 33:14-17
              14 For God does speak—now one way, now another—
              though man may not perceive it.
              15 In a dream, in a vision of the night,
              when deep sleep falls on men
              as they slumber in their beds,
              16 he may speak in their ears
              and terrify them with warnings,
              17 to turn man from wrongdoing
              and keep him from pride,
              Revelation 3:3
              .....If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by ProjectPeter View Post
                As Paul makes clear RbG... all, be you Jew or Gentile, are under sin. All of us stand guilty before God. That was his point in Romans 1 when speaking of the Gentile and then in chapter 2 when telling them... you who judge are also without excuse. He goes on making it clear... it ain't about Jew or Gentile but it is about those that do. He then make it clear that those that rest in the Law are resting in the wrong thing. It isn't a circumcision of the flesh that matters a whit. This requires a circumcision of the heart. Something that happens to the heart (inwardly) and not the body member (outwardly)... it is that inward that benefits you.

                Are we (Jews) any better? Paul's answer was a FIRM "no". All are under sin... be it Jew or Gentile. Paul is still talking about the uselessness of the Law in regard to salvation. Even though you have the Law... that alone is nothing and you are still under sin. Apart from the Law... we have righteousness revealed and that is revealed through faith in Jesus. To whom? All who believe. Not all whom God made believe... but simply all who believe. Jew or Gentile... there is no partiality with God.

                You can pick that piece out and try and make it into what it ain't... but what I have said here is the context in which Paul speaks and uses that passage.
                Then I'll put you down as a No, God never changes your mind, not at all....
                "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
                Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
                ... there are few who find it."


                -----------------------------------------------

                * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

                The New American Standard Bible®,
                Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
                1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
                Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

                Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by RogerW View Post
                  God is providential in all things, even in the sin we commit. That does not mean that God entices us, or causes us to sin, but sin is a necessary part of growing in grace and faith. Sometimes we have opportunities to sin but lack any inner compulsion to pursue them; at other times we experience an inner compulsion but opportunity is lacking or we are providentially protected from taking it. But when temptation, desire, and opportunity coincide, the evil has come. So it was for David (2Sam 11:1ff); so it may be for us. Then it is all we can do to stand. Indeed to remain standing is a great fruit of GRACE in us, but not from us. We cannot wage this battle without the grace of God. The battle is to by waged by us IN THE LORD. We cannot rely on our own resources (so-called our own faith) to resist the temptation that comes from our own flesh, the world, and very often from Satan.

                  God sometimes allows His children to fall in sin so they, like David will acknowledge, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Every sin we commit is against God. The result of David’s great sin was a broken and contrite heart, and this is what the Lord requires of us, that we acknowledge our sinfulness, and in true repentance and contrition mourn with great tears and bitterness over the evil we are all capable of.

                  Have you ever noticed, or perhaps experienced the ache of falling into the same sin again and again? We sometimes look at this as a bad habit that must be broken, but we ought to see this as God allowing us to succumb again and again because we have yet to learn that when we commit sin it is against God. God says “My grace is sufficient for you”, do we rely on His grace to overcome when we are tempted to sin, or do we think we can stand in our own faith?

                  1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

                  Many Blessings,
                  RW
                  Amazing isn't it? Here we read how sin is a "necessary part of growing in grace?" Imagine the silliness of Paul trying to stop folks from growing in this grace when he told folks to "STOP SINNING". How can this be seen as anything other than simply "excusing sin?"


                  Visit our new website
                  ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

                  A.W. Tozer said,
                  "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

                  GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
                    Then I'll put you down as a No, God never changes your mind, not at all....
                    Like I said RbG... in the way you are trying to get your point out here... you can put it down. Like I told folks... you aren't speaking of everyday life things here. So when folks actually figure out your point... I figure you'll have plenty of folks on your "no" list.


                    Visit our new website
                    ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

                    A.W. Tozer said,
                    "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

                    GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by ProjectPeter View Post
                      Like I said RbG... in the way you are trying to get your point out here... you can put it down. Like I told folks... you aren't speaking of everyday life things here. So when folks actually figure out your point... I figure you'll have plenty of folks on your "no" list.
                      Can't pull anything past you.... What was I thinking?

                      Why did I quote all those nuggets of scripture that speak to God's working in and through lives, knowing that PP will see right through me -- that I'm really trying to fool people and PP exposing me for who I am.

                      Praise God then.... For I stand open to say that God works in and through people, and it's because of Christ changing me that I can say I live....

                      So folks, figure it out and take PP's warning if you believe that God doesn't work in your life changing you, nudging you, conforming you in Christ.

                      Choose between knowing that it's God working in you for His glory and your benefit or that it's all up to you, that God stays away from bringing you to Himself, or even changing your heart on things....


                      Choose between your work of repentance alone or of God giving you the wisdom of salvation's call, the circumstances, the humble broken heart, the gratitude, grace and faith to hear, to understand and respond....


                      Choose between praying to God for Him to change the heart of a loved one to become a believer, to pray for a friend that God change his heart about a subject, or to say God doesn't change hearts, not at all.

                      Choose to submit to the wisdom of knowing that those who 'rightly' choose have been subtly given that wisdom, just as each breath you take has also been given to you.

                      Folks, PP has turned this topic into a personal challenge...and to this end... Praise God.... So take a stand, take a side: does God change 'your' mind?
                      "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
                      Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
                      ... there are few who find it."


                      -----------------------------------------------

                      * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

                      The New American Standard Bible®,
                      Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
                      1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
                      Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

                      Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Otherwise known as the "T" in TULIP.


                        Visit our new website
                        ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

                        A.W. Tozer said,
                        "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

                        GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by ProjectPeter View Post
                          Otherwise known as the "T" in TULIP.
                          Don't go there!

                          And don't bring your predispositions regarding what this topic is all about, the question is simple: 'Does God change your mind?' You have answered with a no.

                          So you should be done... your 'no' has been given and duly noted....

                          Have a nice day.
                          "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
                          Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
                          ... there are few who find it."


                          -----------------------------------------------

                          * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

                          The New American Standard Bible®,
                          Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
                          1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
                          Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

                          Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
                            Don't go there!

                            And don't bring your predispositions regarding what this topic is all about, the question is simple: 'Does God change your mind?' You have answered with a no.

                            So you should be done... your 'no' has been given and duly noted....

                            Have a nice day.
                            Ha! Let me remind you what you said in your first post.

                            Originally posted by original post
                            The question may seem easy at first, but the question begs more than a yes or no answer… Does God work in the hearts and minds of men?
                            I was looking beyond the simple!


                            Visit our new website
                            ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

                            A.W. Tozer said,
                            "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

                            GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by ProjectPeter View Post
                              Ha! Let me remind you what you said in your first post.

                              I was looking beyond the simple!


                              Originally posted by ProjectPeter - 1st Post of the thread
                              And which of those passages say that God "repents" you? I mean ultimately this is where you are getting at and you've yet to show that. The Spirit of God convicts the world of sin thus granting repentance that leads to life... that happened at the cross.

                              Just as Paul corrected the Corinth church in that first letter and that letter produced a godly sorrow leading to repentance... Paul instructs Timothy to do the same with folks that perhaps it will also produce that same sort of sorrow in them.

                              Originally posted by ProjectPeter - Second post of the thread
                              And just a note to many of you... He's not talking about changing your mind on decisions you make in your every day life.

                              Ha back at ya.... For you held court, passed judgment, and decreed the intent of the thread to your own bias at the beginning of your contributions in it... so your words have not been on the thread topic --- but on judging my intent...to discredit the thread and thus me.... But hey, you obviously want people to know that you are right and that I am out to trick folks, for if not why 'the note to the many of you' that says so'?
                              "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
                              Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
                              ... there are few who find it."


                              -----------------------------------------------

                              * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

                              The New American Standard Bible®,
                              Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
                              1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
                              Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

                              Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
                                Ha back at ya.... For you held court, passed judgment, and decreed the intent of the thread to your own bias at the beginning of your contributions in it... so your words have not been on the thread topic --- but on judging my intent...to discredit the thread and thus me.... But hey, you obviously want people to know that you are right and that I am out to trick folks, for if not why 'the note to the many of you' that says so'?
                                Uh... you are reading an awful lot into this RbG! Goodness!


                                Visit our new website
                                ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

                                A.W. Tozer said,
                                "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

                                GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

                                Comment

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