Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Eternal Security: True or False?

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Eternal Security: True or False?

    There are some sincere Christians on this forum who say that one can lose their salvation. They quote verses which they think support their views. However, when examining this issue we should go to the "best evidence" available in the Scriptures, verses that acually speak of "eternal life."

    Here we see that the Apostle John tells the Christian that they have already been given eternal life:

    "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

    The following words from the lips of the Lord Jesus makes it plain that those who have been given eternal life "shall never perish":

    "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).

    How can anyone argue that those who have already been given "eternal life" can somehow lose their salvation since the Lord Jesus Himself said that "they shall never perish"?

    I will address any verses that anyone might quote in an effort to prove that the Christian does not enjoy eternal security. But they must address these verses from the pen of the Apostle John.

    In His grace,
    Jerry

  • #2
    I thought this was a poll, short answer Eternal Security is false, I will give a more detailed answer after the thread gets going good.

    Comment


    • #3
      Eternal Security is NOT false, people who say it is are "Lordship Salvationists" and believe you MUST earn salvation by yourself and through works - not relying on faith to save. When you do this, your works become void, and so does your faith, for, you nullify the cross.

      1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
      Even if the flesh gets turned unto Satan, the SPIRIT IS STILL SAVED!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by JerryShugart View Post
        There are some sincere Christians on this forum who say that one can lose their salvation. They quote verses which they think support their views. However, when examining this issue we should go to the "best evidence" available in the Scriptures, verses that acually speak of "eternal life."

        Here we see that the Apostle John tells the Christian that they have already been given eternal life:

        "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

        The following words from the lips of the Lord Jesus makes it plain that those who have been given eternal life "shall never perish":

        "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).

        How can anyone argue that those who have already been given "eternal life" can somehow lose their salvation since the Lord Jesus Himself said that "they shall never perish"?

        I will address any verses that anyone might quote in an effort to prove that the Christian does not enjoy eternal security. But they must address these verses from the pen of the Apostle John.

        In His grace,
        Jerry

        The eternal life that John speaks of is in Christ, if one is no longer in Christ, one no longer has this eternal life.


        John 10:28 Speaks of those who follow, His sheep. Christ, if one no longer follows Christ, then one is no long one of His sheep.

        I'll pose this passage to you,


        Mark 9:35-50 ( KJV ) 35And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all. 36And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them, 37Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me. 38And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40For he that is not against us is on our part.

        41For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. 42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 50Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

        If a believer cannot lose salvation, please explain to me why Jesus would call the twelve and say, to Peter, Matthew, John, and the rest, it is better for you to enter life (eternal) maimed than to be whole and go into hell, into the fire that is not quenched.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by devonrose742 View Post
          Eternal Security is NOT false, people who say it is are "Lordship Salvationists" and believe you MUST earn salvation by yourself and through works - not relying on faith to save. When you do this, your works become void, and so does your faith, for, you nullify the cross.


          Even if the flesh gets turned unto Satan, the SPIRIT IS STILL SAVED!
          Could you please supply a little support for your statement?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
            The eternal life that John speaks of is in Christ, if one is no longer in Christ, one no longer has this eternal life.
            John 10:28 Speaks of those who follow, His sheep. Christ, if one no longer follows Christ, then one is no long one of His sheep.

            I'll pose this passage to you,

            Mark 9:35-50 ( KJV ) 35And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all. 36And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them, 37Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me. 38And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40For he that is not against us is on our part.


            41For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. 42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 50Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.


            If a believer cannot lose salvation, please explain to me why Jesus would call the twelve and say, to Peter, Matthew, John, and the rest, it is better for you to enter life (eternal) maimed than to be whole and go into hell, into the fire that is not quenched.
            Okay first, you're just rambling. That statement is neutral, I could also use it in terms of works salvation; i.e. doing works instead of relying of faith. That verse does not do justice for doing works to salvation, you are using an indirect means to purport a doctrine (our works don't account for anything, Isaiah 64:6, so, can't account for salvation).

            First, salvation is NOT of ourselves:
            For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. – Romans 10:3-4
            Using Romans 4:5-6 as a basis, EVERYONE in the Bible was saved through faith - GOD'S righteousness being IMPUTED upon them THROUGH FAITH not works (outlined previously):
            And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. – Genesis 15:6
            For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. – Romans 4:3
            Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. – Galatians 3:6
            And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. – James 2:23
            This is ratified here:
            Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: – Romans 3:22
            Our "righteousness" HAS NO DIFFERENCE - for, salvation and righteousness comes THROUGH faith by believing Christ paid for your sins.
            “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” – Matthew 7:21-23
            This passage has a few key elements:
            #1 The “will of my father” refers to John 6:40: “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” – John 6:40
            #2 the people being “rejected” are those professing they have done GOOD WORKS
            #3 God says they have done “iniquity” (thus inferring they never accepted his righteousness still having their sins upon them)
            Concerining our royal priest status, doing things by WORKS vs. faith cannot coexist:
            For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. – Galatians 3:18
            Hence:
            For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:” – Romans 4:14
            So if you're working by THE LAW (works) and NOT ONLY BY FAITH: your faith is VOID (nullifying the cross), and the PROMISE (inheritances) IS MADE OF NONE EFFECT!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
              The eternal life that John speaks of is in Christ, if one is no longer in Christ, one no longer has this eternal life.
              Hi Butch5,

              John tells the Christian that he already has been given a life in the Son. He uses the adjective "eternal" to describe the life that the Christian has in Jesus Christ. The Greek word translated "eternal" means "without end, never to cease, everlasting" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

              So in effect John tells the Christian that they have been given a life in Jesus Christ, and that life will never cease.

              If one could lose this life in Christ then it is evident that the life was never "eternal" to begin with. But John states in no uncertan terms the life in Christ is without end.
              John 10:28 Speaks of those who follow, His sheep. Christ, if one no longer follows Christ, then one is no long one of His sheep.
              Those who John told had already been given eternal life at 1 John 5:11 were obviously His sheep. And there are NO conditions attached to the Lord Jesus' words here:

              "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand"
              (Jn.10:28).

              This is an "unconditional" statement but according to you there was a "condition" attached. Anyone can make the Bible say anything they want it to say by adding "conditions" to unconditional statements.

              Now to the verses which you quoted:
              42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
              By the grace of God we have parallel verses of the Lord Jesus' words in the gospel of Matthew and those verses help us to understand the meaning of the Lord Jesus' words:

              "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire" (Mt.18:6-9).

              Here the Lord Jesus is speaking about those in the "world," meaning that the pronouns which He uses are not in regard to those who had already received eternal life.

              He is saying that those of the world would be sent to hell because they were failing to deal with the basic cause of their sins. Of course self-mutiliation would not remove the source of their sins, which is the heart (Mt.15:18-20).

              The Lord Jesus was also teaching that it is better to be a believer and to enter eternal life (Jn.5:24), and to do that maimed, than to be an unbeliever, who will go to hell. The unbeliever never deals with the source of his sins and refuses eternal life with God on His terms.

              Nothing that the Lord Jesus said in these verses teaches that those who have been given eternal life can perish. Instead, the contrast is between those who will inherit eternal life and those who will not.

              In His grace,
              Jerry

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by JerryShugart View Post
                There are some sincere Christians on this forum who say that one can lose their salvation. They quote verses which they think support their views. However, when examining this issue we should go to the "best evidence" available in the Scriptures, verses that acually speak of "eternal life."

                Here we see that the Apostle John tells the Christian that they have already been given eternal life:

                "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

                The following words from the lips of the Lord Jesus makes it plain that those who have been given eternal life "shall never perish":

                "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).

                How can anyone argue that those who have already been given "eternal life" can somehow lose their salvation since the Lord Jesus Himself said that "they shall never perish"?

                I will address any verses that anyone might quote in an effort to prove that the Christian does not enjoy eternal security. But they must address these verses from the pen of the Apostle John.

                In His grace,
                Jerry


                1 Timothy 4:1
                Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
                (Its pretty clear that many will depart from the faith)

                Colossians 1:23
                If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
                (Paul tells us if we continue, meaning that there is a possibility of not continuing)

                Hebrews 6:6
                If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
                (Here we see again that it is possible to fall away, and impossible to renew them!)

                2 Peter 3:17
                Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position [THE FAITH].
                (Here we see again that it is possible to fall away)

                It is so plain and simple, but alot of people has been blinded to believe "OSAS". And the Holy Spirit calls it a doctrine of devils!
                We are his body, We are his representative, We are the extension of God to the earth. Every action should be a extension of God's love.

                Comment


                • #9
                  As I read through some of the thread I can tell that there are some misunderstandings. Especially when it is said that we are "Lordship Salvationists" or we think we "earn our salvation." I know some people might believe that, but my Faith does not teach that and I don't believe in once in grace always in grace either. I believe we are saved by grace, period. Faith is the main instrument to receive grace, and that faith produces deeds that make our faith not be in vain.

                  I do believe that we have a free will, and we can choose to reject God after we have been converted. Sure, noting can snatch us out of God's hands, that is, no outside force. But we can reject God and fall from grace.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The thing that concerns me most with OSAS NOSAS discussions... is it always seems to revolve around other people's salvation, rather than one's own.

                    I've got enough to worry about wondering if I'll ever be saved.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bladers View Post
                      1 Timothy 4:1
                      Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
                      (Its pretty clear that many will depart from the faith)

                      Colossians 1:23
                      If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
                      (Paul tells us if we continue, meaning that there is a possibility of not continuing)

                      Hebrews 6:6
                      If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
                      (Here we see again that it is possible to fall away, and impossible to renew them!)

                      2 Peter 3:17
                      Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position [THE FAITH].
                      (Here we see again that it is possible to fall away)

                      It is so plain and simple, but alot of people has been blinded to believe "OSAS". And the Holy Spirit calls it a doctrine of devils!
                      The departing from the faith is leaving behind the Lord and honoring something other than Him - for instance SELF. YOUR faith does not heal anything - it is He in Whom you place your faith.

                      I had a very good friend die from this nonsense. And the good "man of God" said it was a shame about Gary but his faith just wasn't strong enough - his diabetes would never have caused problems if his faith had just been strong enough.

                      Well gee whiz, guess what - within 12 years that good "man of God" died from occular cancer, cancer of the eye - how apt. There is none so blind as those than will not see.

                      It's all about Jesus and not about the believer. The believer is an extension or an expression of Christ.

                      Sorry Bladers but I've seen all that and I'll walk away, thank you. The Holy Spirit works in me just as much as He does in Benny Hinn - so I would tell you to use caution when ANYTHING or anyone takes precedence over Christ.

                      V
                      I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
                      - Mahatma Gandhi



                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bladers View Post
                        1 Timothy 4:1
                        Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
                        (Its pretty clear that many will depart from the faith)
                        Bladers,

                        I said that if anyone wants to quote verses to attempt to disprove eternal security then they must first address the verses that I quoted on my initial post. After you do that then pick one of your verses and I will address it.

                        In His grace,
                        Jerry

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          These Scriptures seem to be relevant to this discussion.
                          Hebrews 6:4-6 (King James Version)
                          4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
                          5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

                          Hebrews 10:26-29 (King James Version)
                          26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
                          27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
                          28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

                          These Scriptures appear to be saying that if after you are a Christian you continue to sin then you are lost completely and it is impossible to be renewed to repentance.

                          Pretty Scary...huh

                          Stuart Shepherd

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            JerryShugart---John tells the Christian that he already has been given a life in the Son. He uses the adjective "eternal" to describe the life that the Christian has in Jesus Christ. The Greek word translated "eternal" means "without end, never to cease, everlasting" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
                            So in effect John tells the Christian that they have been given a life in Jesus Christ, and that life will never cease.
                            If one could lose this life in Christ then it is evident that the life was never "eternal" to begin with. But John states in no uncertan terms the life in Christ is without end.
                            First let me say this, John uses the present tense of the Greek word, so, John is actually saying, he who "is believing", present tense, the one who is currently believing. If one is not currently believing then he does not have eternal life. John is clear that this eternal life is for the one who currently believes. Also if believers already had eternal life, why would Jesus make this statement?

                            Revelation 2:7 ( KJV ) 7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
                            Why would a believer need to eat from the tree of life if he already had eternal life? According to God eternal life comes from the tree of life.

                            Genesis 3:22 ( KJV ) 22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
                            God says if one eats from the tree of life he will live forever, Jesus promised to give to eat of this tree, to the believer who overcomes, what need would there be if a believer already has eternal life.
                            Paul says that believers receive the down payment of their inheritance when they believe.

                            Ephesians 1:12-14 ( KJV ) 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
                            Paul also said,

                            Titus 1:1-2 ( KJV ) 1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of Godís elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

                            Titus 3:7 ( KJV ) 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
                            Why would one hope for what they already had?
                            John's statement was simply the promise of eternal life for those in Christ. They are not in possession of it.

                            As far as eternal life, the life is eternal whether one has it or not.



                            JerryShugart---Those who John told had already been given eternal life at 1 John 5:11 were obviously His sheep. And there are NO conditions attached to the Lord Jesus' words here:
                            "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).
                            This is an "unconditional" statement but according to you there was a "condition" attached. Anyone can make the Bible say anything they want it to say by adding "conditions" to unconditional statements.
                            You seem to have overlooked something, the statement is "not unconditional", look at who Jesus is speaking of, the promise is to His sheep, no one else. In order to obtain the promise you must meet a condition, you must be one of His sheep.


                            JerryShugart---Now to the verses which you quoted:
                            By the grace of God we have parallel verses of the Lord Jesus' words in the gospel of Matthew and those verses help us to understand the meaning of the Lord Jesus' words:
                            "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire" (Mt.18:6-9).
                            Here the Lord Jesus is speaking about those in the "world," meaning that the pronouns which He uses are not in regard to those who had already received eternal life.
                            He is saying that those of the world would be sent to hell because they were failing to deal with the basic cause of their sins. Of course self-mutiliation would not remove the source of their sins, which is the heart (Mt.15:18-20).
                            The Lord Jesus was also teaching that it is better to be a believer and to enter eternal life (Jn.5:24), and to do that maimed, than to be an unbeliever, who will go to hell. The unbeliever never deals with the source of his sins and refuses eternal life with God on His terms.
                            Nothing that the Lord Jesus said in these verses teaches that those who have been given eternal life can perish. Instead, the contrast is between those who will inherit eternal life and those who will not.

                            That's funny because I was going to use the Matthew passage in my post. You posted the Matthew passage without addressing the passage in Mark. In the passage in Mark it clearly says Jesus called the 12 to Him and began teaching them, so He was saying these things to Matthew, Peter, John, and the other disciples. So I will ask you again, why would Jesus say this to His disciples if it was impossible for them to lose salvation???
                            Now, regarding the passage in Matthew, you claim Jesus was speaking to the world and about unbelievers. Even if there were unbelievers there, Jesus said this,

                            Matthew 5:1-2 ( KJV ) 1And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: 2And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
                            Once again we have Jesus teaching His disciples, so, if they could not lose salvation why is He teaching them that they can???

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              devonrose---Okay first, you're just rambling. That statement is neutral, I could also use it in terms of works salvation; i.e. doing works instead of relying of faith. That verse does not do justice for doing works to salvation, you are using an indirect means to purport a doctrine (our works don't account for anything, Isaiah 64:6, so, can't account for salvation).
                              I'm Rambling? First of all I didn't say anything about works and salvation. I simply asked, why would Jesus tell His disciples to be careful to avoid hell, if it was not possible that they could God there?

                              BTW, Isaiah 64:6, Isaiah is speaking of Israel's righteousness being as filthy rags. He says "our", look at the context, it is a prayer, Isaiah is interceding on behalf of Israel, he did not say all men righteousness is as filthy rags.

                              devonrose---First, salvation is NOT of ourselves:

                              Using Romans 4:5-6 as a basis, EVERYONE in the Bible was saved through faith - GOD'S righteousness being IMPUTED upon them THROUGH FAITH not works (outlined previously):
                              Initial salavation does come through faith, however once one is in this relationship with Christ, there are works that must be done,


                              devonrose---Concerining our royal priest status, doing things by WORKS vs. faith cannot coexist:
                              Faith and works cannot coexist??? You might want to speak to James on that issue,

                              James 2:21-24 ( KJV ) 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

                              You see how a man is not justified by faith only??? As I said initially when you come to Christ you are save without works, once in the relationship there are works to be done.

                              devonrose---So if you're working by THE LAW (works) and NOT ONLY BY FAITH: your faith is VOID (nullifying the cross), and the PROMISE (inheritances) IS MADE OF NONE EFFECT!
                              You are confusing the works of hte law with works of righteousness, Paul speaks of hte works of the law, James speaks of works of righteousness. The works of the law cannot save.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X