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  • Women ministers

    I was just thinking about this the other day, and was looking for some feedback.

    1 Timothy 2:12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man, but to be in silence

    While most Christians believe that this has to do with the authority structure of men over women, with which I partly agree, I have come up with another angle which I also find sensible.

    When I was online a few days ago, I noticed that several men were talking about a certain woman preacher, and they kept going on about how attractive she was.

    This got me thinking....that perhaps the reason Paul forbade a woman to teach over a man had as much to do with the fact that men are visual creatures, and may more easily be distracted from God's Word if a woman is teaching. In other words, it has less to do with a woman's inability to teach, and more to do about the men's reaction to her.

    Think about it....if an attractive female preacher is speaking, I think that most men would be paying more attention to her looks than her message. On the other hand, women are NOT visual creatures, and though it CAN happen, they would be less likely to be distracted by the way a person looks.

    If it had to do with women not being spiritually discerning enough to teach, the Paul might have also forbade women to teach women, as well.

    I am REALLY not trying to rag on you gentlemen here, but be honest...if you were to see an attrctive lady speaking from the pulpit, wouldn't you be just as focused, if not more focused, on her looks, rather than the message?
    Women are not visual creatures, so for the most part, we don't have this problem...men, on the other hand...I believe that Paul said this because a woman teacher may prove distracting for the man, rather than the woman's inability to teach effectively.

  • #2
    You must remember that anything found in the Word of God, comes from God. It wasn't Paul's decision to have women not speak in a church service..

    2 Timothy 3:16-"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

    Stepping out now...unfortunately, there are many that may follow my post saying that it is ok for a woman to be a minister. I strongly disagree.
    .................The message of the cross divides the human race." ~MW~

    ........ ... " LORD, I beseech thee, let now thine ear be attentive to the prayer of thy servant..."
    .................................................. .................................................. ...Nehemiah 1:11a



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    • #3
      Originally posted by karenoka27 View Post
      You must remember that anything found in the Word of God, comes from God. It wasn't Paul's decision to have women not speak in a church service..

      2 Timothy 3:16-"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
      I understand that, so let me rephrase it...what Paul said THROUGH the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

      Stepping out now...unfortunately, there are many that may follow my post saying that it is ok for a woman to be a minister. I strongly disagree.
      ....and I agree with you. I was raised in a very orthodox home, in which this was taught...and although I have discarded much of the theology that I had growing up, I still feel very strongly about this.

      The question, though, was not WHETHER it was wrong..It was WHY it is wrong


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      • #4
        Because God said no?
        That is my guess. I am always amazed at how people can take God's Word and try to twist it so that they can do what God clearly says not to do.
        .................The message of the cross divides the human race." ~MW~

        ........ ... " LORD, I beseech thee, let now thine ear be attentive to the prayer of thy servant..."
        .................................................. .................................................. ...Nehemiah 1:11a



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        • #5
          Interestingly enough....During Paul's time, one of the hallmarks of the pagan religions that were so prevalent, were the "priestesses" that were found in nearly every pagan temple.

          They "prophesied", gave "interpretation of omens", etc. Perhaps Paul (through the Holy Spirit) was saying that a Christian woman should have no opportunity to be confused with a Pagan woman by her conduct?

          Just a thought...
          Ιησούς Χριστός ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου



          ****When the Lord opens a door, don't walk through it....run full speed; if it's the wrong one He'll let ya know...sometimes He just wants to see if you'll move at all!****


          A Minister of God Ministry - Support and understanding for a Christian serving in the military

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          • #6
            Originally posted by karenoka27 View Post
            Because God said no?
            That is my guess. I am always amazed at how people can take God's Word and try to twist it so that they can do what God clearly says not to do.
            Exactly.

            There are also reasons found in the following verses:

            For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
            (1 Timothy 2:13-14)

            Some good links:
            http://www.opc.org/new_horizons/9601a.html
            http://www.pressiechurch.org/Theol_2...e_never_be.htm
            http://www.pressiechurch.org/Theol_2...g_of_women.htm (This one's fiery!)
            What is thy only comfort in life and death?

            That I with body and soul, both in life and death, am not my own, but belong unto my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ; who, with his precious blood, has fully satisfied for all my sins, and delivered me from all the power of the devil; and so preserves me that without the will of my heavenly Father, not a hair can fall from my head; yea, that all things must be subservient to my salvation, and therefore, by his Holy Spirit, He also assures me of eternal life, and makes me sincerely willing and ready, henceforth, to live unto him.

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi Cloudburst,
              Who told you women aren't visual creatures? That gave me a chuckle. It could be that we don't have the same attention span perhaps when it comes to lustful thoughts. But women are just as imaginative as men when it comes to the presence of the opposite sex.

              But we don't have to worry about that because Paul tells us why he says this - because it was Eve who was first deceived. In a rather imaginative dialogue with the devil, at that. She was the one who thought the forbidden fruit looked good to eat. (so much for not being visual...)

              When you look at some of the questionable groups who call themselves Christian, not a few were started by women. It seems that women are found in greater numbers than men in most churches, so I expect it is natural for them to want to be leaders. After all we rule our children well...

              If you have ever talked to women who have had to work under a female boss, there are not many who can do so well. But then as a woman, perhaps I don't react to the same things from a male boss who acts like a jerk.
              Robin

              Truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established that, unless one loves the truth, he cannot know it. - Blaise Pascal
              And Jesus saith unto him [Thomas], I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6
              Discernment is not needed in things that differ, but in things that appear to be the same. - Miles Sanford
              Those who compromise with Christís enemies may be reckoned with them. - C.H. Spurgeon

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              • #8
                Originally posted by karenoka27 View Post
                Because God said no?
                Touche!!! You're right

                That is my guess. I am always amazed at how people can take God's Word and try to twist it so that they can do what God clearly says not to do.
                Oh, goodness, I hope that you aren't implying that I was the one doing the twisting, because that seriously was not my intent.
                I was just trying to discuss something that I've been thinking about. I also agree with you that women should not be pastors.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mograce2U View Post
                  Hi Cloudburst,
                  Who told you women aren't visual creatures? That gave me a chuckle. It could be that we don't have the same attention span perhaps when it comes to lustful thoughts. But women are just as imaginative as men when it comes to the presence of the opposite sex.
                  Well, actually, men have told me that...about them being visual. Not only that, but women have also said that they are more emotional than men.

                  But we don't have to worry about that because Paul tells us why he says this - because it was Eve who was first deceived. In a rather imaginative dialogue with the devil, at that. She was the one who thought the forbidden fruit looked good to eat. (so much for not being visual...)
                  LOL....How true. Well, I do agree with the fact that the heirarchy has to do with the woman being deceived, but when I was reading these comments about the woman preacher, this thought seriously came to mind.
                  I guess I didn't really give a whole lot of thought to it....I was just feeding off what these guys said.

                  If you have ever talked to women who have had to work under a female boss, there are not many who can do so well. But then as a woman, perhaps I don't react to the same things from a male boss who acts like a jerk.
                  I, personally, wish I worked with more women. I am the only female in my division, which is okay, but I do wish I could engage in more "girl talk" at work....there's only so many conversations about football practice and "hot chicks" that I can tolerate.
                  I have had a female boss in the past, and I guess I was lucky, because she was very nice.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by cloudburst View Post
                    This got me thinking....that perhaps the reason Paul forbade a woman to teach over a man had as much to do with the fact that men are visual creatures, and may more easily be distracted from God's Word if a woman is teaching. In other words, it has less to do with a woman's inability to teach, and more to do about the men's reaction to her.
                    You make a good point here cloudburst, and in the context of the verse in question Paul does indeed mention a woman's looks in verse 9:

                    1 Timothy 2:9 ∂In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

                    Yet Paul does give a clear explanation of the main reason why a woman is to not teach or seize authority over the man in verses 13 & 14 - the man was first formed and given the authority by God (Genesis 2:18), and the man was not deceived like the woman was in the garden (Genesis 3:13), suggesting that she would be again if she is put in a position of teaching or authority over the man.

                    It must be noted that what Paul is writing about here is concerning the order of authority within the local church (1 Timothy 2:7; 1 Timothy 3:1), and while there is some spiritual application concerning wives and husbands the doctrinal application is the local church. So women are not to teach or usurp authority over men within the local church, no women deacons, or pastors/bishops who do the preaching and teaching of God's word to the congregation.

                    Originally posted by cloudburst View Post
                    I am REALLY not trying to rag on you gentlemen here, but be honest...if you were to see an attrctive lady speaking from the pulpit, wouldn't you be just as focused, if not more focused, on her looks, rather than the message?
                    No comment!
                    - Matt -
                    .
                    Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing
                    of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13

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                    • #11
                      From a strictly pragmatic point, I'll share this observation of the women pastors I've known, and known of.

                      An inordinately high number of women pastors are extremely liberal both theologically and socially. Some seem to be almost angrily feminist, to the point they spend a lot of time actually bashing men. Some have gone through horrible divorces, and seem to have a chip on their shoulder. A disproportionate number are lesbians.

                      There was a woman pastor who, years ago, was part of our area Ministerial Association. She was kindly received by all the men, and treated like anybody else. But her main mission seemed to focus on eradicating all gender-related language from the Bible & their hymnals. It was rather strange.


                      I'm sure there are some members here who will believe me a horrible person for sharing these observations. But they are my honest observations, and they make me rather sad.

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                      • #12
                        Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Wintermute View Post
                          Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
                          Let's not be too quick to play choppy-choppy:

                          Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.
                          (Tit 2:3-5)

                          Also, let's try not to "trump" one verse with another. It doesn't make for good theology
                          What is thy only comfort in life and death?

                          That I with body and soul, both in life and death, am not my own, but belong unto my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ; who, with his precious blood, has fully satisfied for all my sins, and delivered me from all the power of the devil; and so preserves me that without the will of my heavenly Father, not a hair can fall from my head; yea, that all things must be subservient to my salvation, and therefore, by his Holy Spirit, He also assures me of eternal life, and makes me sincerely willing and ready, henceforth, to live unto him.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SemperReformanda View Post
                            Let's not be too quick to play choppy-choppy:
                            Exactly, which applies as much to the Timothy verses. And what is meant by teaching, according to Paul.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Wintermute View Post
                              Exactly, which applies as much to the Timothy verses. And what is meant by teaching, according to Paul.
                              Agreed.

                              In the interests of doing so, I will quote 2 Timothy 2:1-3:8.

                              First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

                              For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness--with good works.

                              Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

                              The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

                              Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain.
                              (1Ti 2:1-3:8)

                              Could you please illustrate from the text how complementarians misinterpret what Paul is saying?
                              What is thy only comfort in life and death?

                              That I with body and soul, both in life and death, am not my own, but belong unto my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ; who, with his precious blood, has fully satisfied for all my sins, and delivered me from all the power of the devil; and so preserves me that without the will of my heavenly Father, not a hair can fall from my head; yea, that all things must be subservient to my salvation, and therefore, by his Holy Spirit, He also assures me of eternal life, and makes me sincerely willing and ready, henceforth, to live unto him.

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