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  • Jesus says we're Gods

    Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;


    John 10:32-35

  • #2
    Wouldn't get too excited

    I wouldn't get too excited about it. The Bible also says you were made out of dirt.
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

    Comment


    • #3
      If you read on, you understand the point Jesus is making. He is not saying (as many people misinterpret this passage to mean) that all people are in effect gods, but rather he is making a point about the hypocrisy of the Jews towards God and the Scriptures.

      They wanted to stone Jesus for saying that He was God.

      Jesus said that the Jews didn't try to stone Asaph for saying the mighty men in Psalm 82 were gods, so why were they trying to stone Him, who the Father had sanctified and made known through His mighty works?
      What is thy only comfort in life and death?

      That I with body and soul, both in life and death, am not my own, but belong unto my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ; who, with his precious blood, has fully satisfied for all my sins, and delivered me from all the power of the devil; and so preserves me that without the will of my heavenly Father, not a hair can fall from my head; yea, that all things must be subservient to my salvation, and therefore, by his Holy Spirit, He also assures me of eternal life, and makes me sincerely willing and ready, henceforth, to live unto him.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi GJT
        Originally posted by GJT View Post
        Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;


        John 10:32-35
        I was always taught that the reference was to judges as "elohim" in Exodus 21:6, 22:8-9 in KJV. And I believed that unquestioningly for years. Even when I started studying (only intermediate, not going to claim any expertise) Hebrew, I still believed it because Brown Driver Briggs, which is still the "big" lexicon, confirms it. And also because this Psalm 82 seems to confirm it:

        Psalm 82:1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
        in the midst of the gods he holds judgment
        :
        2 “How long will you judge unjustly
        and show partiality to the wicked?
        Selah
        3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
        maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
        4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
        deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”

        5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
        they walk about in darkness;
        all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

        6 I said, “You are gods,
        sons of the Most High, all of you;
        7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,
        and fall like any prince
        .”

        8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
        for you shall inherit all the nations!



        In vs1 that reads like gods, but in 2-7 it all reads like mortals with delusions of grandeur.

        Then I was introduced to the complicated argument about whether "condemn" in Ex22:9 is plural or singular - because it is only possible to tell whether Elohim is plural or singular when a verb adjective or pronoun is present:

        Ex22:9 For every breach of trust, whether it is for an ox, for a donkey, for a sheep, for a cloak, or for any kind of lost thing, of which one says, ‘This is it,’ the case of both parties shall come before God (or before the gods, "judges" KJV). The one whom God condemns (JPS and ESV read as singular verb) shall pay double to his neighbor.

        22:8 in Hebrew numbering
        עַֽל־כָּל־דְּבַר־פֶּשַׁע עַל־שֹׁור עַל־חֲמֹור עַל־שֶׂה עַל־שַׂלְמָה עַל־כָּל־אֲבֵדָה אֲשֶׁר יֹאמַר כִּי־הוּא זֶה עַד הָֽאֱלֹהִים יָבֹא דְּבַר־שְׁנֵיהֶם אֲשֶׁר יַרְשִׁיעֻן אֱלֹהִים יְשַׁלֵּם שְׁנַיִם לְרֵעֵֽהוּ׃ ס

        This is still making my head ache. ירשיען appears to be Hiphil masculine plural "they declare guilty" - but is that correct, and is it the judges themselves or the Urim and Thummim?

        Is it possible that Jesus with "your law" was only saying "you Pharisees read the Law as saying this", or was he referring to the Septuagint? Or was he classing them with unjust judges of Ps82???

        Anyone have any solid data on this problem?
        God bless
        Steven

        Comment


        • #5
          The Greek word used there is theos

          theos [G2316]

          of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very: -- X exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward).

          I think we are looking at the figurative here, thus --> a magistrate or something in that line.

          God bless
          Phil

          Comment


          • #6
            32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

            33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

            34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

            What Jesus was pointing out by what he said, was that they made themselves god over the people when they were not. They were priests over the people, but ruled as gods. And because some even looked upon them as god, they were exalted and did not give that glory to God instead.

            In other words they did not deny the position in which some of the people raised them to. This also works very much like how some have raised Mary to be the Queen of Heaven. The word never states that Mary was to hold such a position. So man did this. Just as they did with the priests.

            So upon allowing this they were breaking the first commandment openly. Even the kings og that time feared the priest because they feared the priest could call upon God, or provoke the people to war.
            Note: By request I can only post and see the tech section of this forum. So don't respond to my posts in the other sections because I cannot see them so I cannot respond. You can PM me if you need to.
            My site: http://www.yecheadquarters.org/

            Comment


            • #7
              'gods' - vs. God.


              Notice the small case vs. the large.



              We may be 'gods' - but we will NEVER be God!!!!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by GJT View Post
                Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;


                John 10:32-35
                If you think about - what Jesus said regarding the Israelites being "gods" is very logical and in accordance with scripture. Think about it. Through Christ we are set free from the bondage of sin, and as his disciples he shares everything with us that has been given to him by the Father, so long as we ask for it in his name. (John 14:14)

                If you want to go back even further than this though - the Word also references man as being like God all the way back in Genesis 3:22 which states -

                Man has now become like one of us in knowing good and evil

                So this is the age that we live under. An age where all of God's creations are given the choice/opportunity to follow and be submissive to His will, or to follow their own will. We all have become "gods" in a sense with this gift called free will given to us by him. It should be noted that upon the return of Christ - God's will is going to be the only thing that is exalted on that day and the days that follow, seeing as how He has already given us ample time to follow our own desires within this lifetime.

                Comment


                • #9
                  In reference to Psalm 82:6:

                  The Hebrew word for “gods”in Psalm 82:6 is the word for God Himself (ELOHIM). The point our LORD was making here is that if these Jews could use the term ELOHIM to describe mere men who happen to “represent” God, then why should they oppose HIM for claiming to be the very SON OF GOD? Although no man can become a god, God did become a man

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
                    Hi GJT

                    I was always taught that the reference was to judges as "elohim" in Exodus 21:6, 22:8-9 in KJV. And I believed that unquestioningly for years. Even when I started studying (only intermediate, not going to claim any expertise) Hebrew, I still believed it because Brown Driver Briggs, which is still the "big" lexicon, confirms it. And also because this Psalm 82 seems to confirm it:

                    Psalm 82:1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
                    in the midst of the gods he holds judgment
                    :
                    2 “How long will you judge unjustly
                    and show partiality to the wicked?
                    Selah
                    3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
                    maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
                    4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
                    deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”

                    5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
                    they walk about in darkness;
                    all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

                    6 I said, “You are gods,
                    sons of the Most High, all of you;
                    7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,
                    and fall like any prince
                    .”

                    8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
                    for you shall inherit all the nations!



                    In vs1 that reads like gods, but in 2-7 it all reads like mortals with delusions of grandeur.

                    Then I was introduced to the complicated argument about whether "condemn" in Ex22:9 is plural or singular - because it is only possible to tell whether Elohim is plural or singular when a verb adjective or pronoun is present:

                    Ex22:9 For every breach of trust, whether it is for an ox, for a donkey, for a sheep, for a cloak, or for any kind of lost thing, of which one says, ‘This is it,’ the case of both parties shall come before God (or before the gods, "judges" KJV). The one whom God condemns (JPS and ESV read as singular verb) shall pay double to his neighbor.

                    22:8 in Hebrew numbering
                    עַֽל־כָּל־דְּבַר־פֶּשַׁע עַל־שֹׁור עַל־חֲמֹור עַל־שֶׂה עַל־שַׂלְמָה עַל־כָּל־אֲבֵדָה אֲשֶׁר יֹאמַר כִּי־הוּא זֶה עַד הָֽאֱלֹהִים יָבֹא דְּבַר־שְׁנֵיהֶם אֲשֶׁר יַרְשִׁיעֻן אֱלֹהִים יְשַׁלֵּם שְׁנַיִם לְרֵעֵֽהוּ׃ ס

                    This is still making my head ache. ירשיען appears to be Hiphil masculine plural "they declare guilty" - but is that correct, and is it the judges themselves or the Urim and Thummim?

                    Is it possible that Jesus with "your law" was only saying "you Pharisees read the Law as saying this", or was he referring to the Septuagint? Or was he classing them with unjust judges of Ps82???

                    Anyone have any solid data on this problem?
                    God bless
                    Steven

                    Thanks for showing me this psalm. This confirms what I've learned Jesus has been saying over the past few weeks. The Catholic bible says "It is written in your own Law that God said you are Gods We know that what the scripture says is forever; and God called those people Gods, the people whom his message was given". Jesus was proving to them that he wasn't lying when he said that he was God, because even in the scripture it says that they are Gods so if he is one of them how is he not God. This is why Jesus always called himself the son of man because God called all humanity man, by saying that he was saying all humanity are Gods not just Jews thats why he wanted everyone, not just the Jews to here his message.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by GJT View Post
                      Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;


                      John 10:32-35

                      gods 2316?

                      theos

                      1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
                      2) the Godhead, trinity
                      a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity
                      b) Christ, the second person of the trinity
                      c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
                      3) spoken of the only and true God
                      a) refers to the things of God
                      b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
                      4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
                      a) God's representative or viceregent
                      1) of magistrates and judges

                      The ones I've highlighted in red would be what He was referring to.
                      WE were made in God's image....that covers number 4.
                      We are God's representatives on earth, but we are not God Himself... Like the president sends representatives in his place. That covers 4a.
                      We are to judge between good and evil in righteousness and love. Well that covers the last one.

                      If you are suggesting the others refer to us, then you have made yourself equal to God and have blasphemed.
                      Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Phil Fourie View Post
                        The Greek word used there is theos

                        theos [G2316]

                        of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very: -- X exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward).

                        I think we are looking at the figurative here, thus --> a magistrate or something in that line.

                        God bless
                        Phil
                        In eastern Christianity this is known as "theosis".

                        Externally, man seems to be just a biological being, like other living beings, the animals. Of course, he is an animal, but ‘an animal ... which can be deified through its inclination towards God’, as St. Gregory the Theologian characteristically says (Homily on the Epiphany). He is the only being that stands apart from all creation; the only one which can become a god.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Saved7 View Post
                          gods 2316?

                          theos

                          1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
                          2) the Godhead, trinity
                          a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity
                          b) Christ, the second person of the trinity
                          c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
                          3) spoken of the only and true God
                          a) refers to the things of God
                          b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
                          4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
                          a) God's representative or viceregent
                          1) of magistrates and judges

                          The ones I've highlighted in red would be what He was referring to.
                          WE were made in God's image....that covers number 4.
                          We are God's representatives on earth, but we are not God Himself... Like the president sends representatives in his place. That covers 4a.
                          We are to judge between good and evil in righteousness and love. Well that covers the last one.

                          If you are suggesting the others refer to us, then you have made yourself equal to God and have blasphemed.

                          By your logic you just blasphemed by saying we are to judge between good and evil. Following Jesus and Gods teachings is likening yourself, therefor you are saying all Christians commit blasphemy. Liking yourself is making yourself equal.


                          Main Entry: liken Part of Speech: verb Definition: compare Synonyms: allegorize, approach, approximate to, assimilate, balance, bear comparison, be in the same class as*, be on a par with*, come up to, correlate, distinguish between, draw parallel, equal, equate, identify with, link, make like, match, notice similarities, parallel, put alongside, relate, resemble, show correspondence

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by GJT View Post
                            By your logic you just blasphemed by saying we are to judge between good and evil. Following Jesus and Gods teachings is likening yourself, therefor you are saying all Christians commit blasphemy. Liking yourself is making yourself equal.


                            Main Entry: liken Part of Speech: verb Definition: compare Synonyms: allegorize, approach, approximate to, assimilate, balance, bear comparison, be in the same class as*, be on a par with*, come up to, correlate, distinguish between, draw parallel, equal, equate, identify with, link, make like, match, notice similarities, parallel, put alongside, relate, resemble, show correspondence

                            Gen 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

                            ‘In His image’ refers to the gifts which God gave only to man, alone among all His creatures, so that he constitutes an image of God. These gifts are: a rational mind (gr. nous), conscience, and self-authority, in other words freedom, creativity, eros, and the yearning for the absolute and for God, personal self-awareness, and anything else which puts man above all other living beings in creation, and makes him a man and a personality. In other words, everything that makes man a person. These are the gifts of the ‘in His image’.

                            Having been formed ‘in His image’, man is called upon to be acquire the ‘in His likeness’, in other words, deification (gr. theosis). The Creator, God by nature, calls man to become a god by Grace.

                            The gifts of ‘in His image’ were given to man by God so that that he may ascend very high; so that through them he may attain a likeness to his God and Creator; so that he may have not an external, moral relationship, but a personal union with his Creator.

                            Perhaps it is very daring for us even to say or think that our purpose in life is to become gods by Grace. However, neither the Holy Bible nor the Church Fathers have hidden this from us.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi GJT
                              Originally posted by GJT View Post
                              Thanks for showing me this psalm. This confirms what I've learned Jesus has been saying over the past few weeks. The Catholic bible says "It is written in your own Law that God said you are Gods We know that what the scripture says is forever; and God called those people Gods, the people whom his message was given".
                              Out of interest which Catholic version, JB? NJB?
                              Jesus was proving to them that he wasn't lying when he said that he was God, because even in the scripture it says that they are Gods so if he is one of them how is he not God.
                              Perhaps note the different verbs in the accusation and the reply:

                              Pharisees' accusation : make yourself God
                              Jesus defence : in Ps82 men called gods

                              But in any case it's only one verse remember, and it relates to the Pharisee's interpretation of the Law "your law", not necessarily Jesus' interpretation.

                              Firstly Jesus isn't necessarily approving the concept that men can be called "gods" any more than the Psalm he's quoting is approving the unjust judges of the psalmist's day thinking that they were "gods". It's probably more like a reference to Capernaum thinking it was lifted up to heaven, or the kings of Babylon and Tyre with their similar ambitions.

                              Secondly we don't know that Ps82 approves confirms that (late?) Jewish interpretation that "before God" in Exodus actually meant men being called Gods. Exodus 22 (leaving aside whether that verb is singular or plural) is not dealing with a normal human judgment situation, the judges didn't judge, the Urim and Thummim did. Ps82 may actually be sarcastic, comparing non Urim and Thummim magistrates who didn't meet Exodus22 criteria. Hence Jesus using Ps82 would also be ironic.

                              With those two problems we can't say "all humanity are Gods" based on just this one verse.

                              This is why Jesus always called himself the son of man because God called all humanity man, by saying that he was saying all humanity are Gods not just Jews thats why he wanted everyone, not just the Jews to here his message.
                              But here in John 10 Jesus says that the Jews said he was blaspheming because of calling himself "the Son of God", not "the Son of Man" (although they probably considered that blasphemous too...)

                              John 10:36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

                              Also, while yes "a son of man" is used generically of humans in the OT (first use is Num 23:19 'God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind.) Jesus describes himself as the Son of Man, a unique title, which in the NT is likely a reference to the virgin birth and the Logos being made flesh.

                              Sorry I just don't think this verse is sufficient proof for men being called "gods". The Ex22 reference is shaky, Ps82 is sarcastic, and Jesus quotes Ps82 as "your law" implying he doesn't necessarily share the Pharisee's reading.
                              God bless
                              Steven

                              Comment

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