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What if a Christian wants a pre-nup contract signed before marraige?

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  • What if a Christian wants a pre-nup contract signed before marraige?

    Honestly, I have some pretty strong feelings about this..whichis why I don't want to allow these to be a factor in a response for advice for a dear friend over this,

    Here's the situation..he's a widower, one child is half way through college, the other only 12 yrs old, owns his home, has a large pension from one jobhe worked at for 29 yrs, has started a new career, is contemplating his own businesin the near future as he is only 53 yrs old.He is an only child, will inherit a sizeable estate when his father passes away who is also a widower and in his late 80's.

    She is 51 yrs., her children are raised, her husband is remarried, left her with the short end of the stick as in no assetsor retirement , she owns her own mobilehome , car, and has a modest income but pretty much lived pay check to pay check while raising her own children absent the former husbands financial assistance..was the stay at home parent before this..so there will be no time for her to ever actually establish the earning potential her fiance has..or set up a retirement plan that will cover her needs absent working for as long as possible.

    Her fiance wants them to sign and enter into a prenuptual agreement where the bulk of the assets, home and grandfather to the boys estate is put under protection and seperation for the son's in the event he were to die..so in effect she is supposed to sell of any of her belongings, her home. etc..when they get married, move in with him, keep working and inthe event he dies..she is on her own..with a very small allowance set aside to help her get back on her feet again..

    And this is supposed to stand from now until the youngest child turns 24 yrs old...or 12 yrs from now..that and he will only match and contribute the amount she earns as "joint assets", the rest set aside for his sons.but they will stay in his home which she will never be a co-owner of but will be expected to contribute to the upkeep of as "the wife"..

    If they divorce, she gets nothing..even if he were to be at fault..because she would have been equitably compensated by this arrangement..

    I was a bit shocked to hear this..but both profess to be Christians and he is arguing his biblical responsibilites to his children justify this request and refuses to get married to anyone who will not abide by these terms..to "protect his children".

    Is he right?..something seems very wrong with this "conditional" approach to marraige where it is supposed to be two Christians entering a biblical marraige where there should be no divorce "down the road" or anticipating failure and preparing with a pre-emptive strike here towards ones spouse.

    I am very interested in what responses are offered and how to council my friend...so have at it and don't hold back any punches..

    YSIC,
    Grace
    "On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand; all other ground is sinking sand, all other ground is sinking sand." My Hope Is Built on Nothing Less, Edward Mote

  • #2
    My gut instinct is that a pre-nup means you don't trust the person you're about to marry, which leads me to wonder why you are marrying them.

    Is your friend is concerned about his own assets, or the assets he will inherit from his father? If it's his own assets my suggestion is that he spends a lot of time thinking and praying about whether marriage is the right thing for him to do.

    If it's his father's assets a lot of thought and prayer is still advisable, but on a practical level his father can leave assets to his son (i.e. the father's grandson) directly and cut your friend out of the equation completely.

    Ultimately it boils down to that one phrase, "til death do us part". If your friend thinks his wife-to-be isn't going to honour that phrase, or isn't willing to take the chance, a marriage may not be advisable.
    24 August 2013 - I've decided to take a break from a number of internet forums, including this one, for my own reasons.
    I expect to be back at some time in the future, although at present don't know when that will be.
    I've been here just a few days shy of six years, and those six years have been greatly blessed.

    ---

    1Jn 4:1 NKJV Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
    1Th 5:21-22 NKJV Test all things; hold fast what is good. (22) Abstain from every form of evil.



    Comment


    • #3
      Thank you for the response Tango.

      At face value, I suppose it makes some sense regarding a fathers desire to make sure his son's are secure and to give that consideration.

      I wish I could place a name on what troubles me about this,

      My friend was "left" by a husband who had been a minister when they married, about 6 yrs into his marraige, he had a crisis of sorts in his faith, left the ministry , claimed he no longer believed in God..had had an affair and got one of the members of the church pregnant,and she was married at the time herself..so they went off together..and he has basically fallen off the face of the earth since then..apparently has left a trail of broken marraiges and children in his wake.

      My friend on the other hand raised their three children, one was hit by a car when a teenager , suffered some horrendous injuries and by the Grace of God has recovered and thrived..but the medical care, rehab and everying was a huge expense.This gal is so strong in her faith, and so humble,salt of the earth..not driven by materialistic things whatsoever..she remained unmarried to focus all of her attention on her kids, feeling this was the priority for that season of her life.

      I can't say one thing bad about her fiance..he too was a very remarkable parent, his children are lovely..he is well respected and liked as is my friend..they appear to be what looks like a very well suited and compatible match.

      They also saught council about marraige from the Pastor regarding this period of their life having been single so long..and for what ever reason, this fella ommited his intentions to require a prenup in the counseling sessions, it just arrived out of nowhere while they were approaching making the plans to set the date several sessions into the counseling.

      Apparently the Pastors position is that there is nothing wrong with it..

      That sounds odd..for so many reasons to me..but again I am not one who dwells on these issues beyond a point, never had the luxury as my circumstances have not been so different from my friends in respect to simply not making money a master..and so little around to even worry about beyond a point..pretty much resting in God's sufficiency for the future where I can not solve such matters beyond a point.

      It would seem reasonable to provide legal diligence to the welfare of living children in respect to setting up a will to provide for their welfare in the event of a death..but a prenup?

      Ths woman will be in effect the step mom..and she adores this child and will be an integral part of his life between now when he is 12 yrs old and 24 yrs old. if they marry..nor do I or my friend see anythig wrong about the actual arrangement of the income in respect to approaching this as if they were just starting out and had to reach some common ground about becoming one in financial matters..

      It's the issue of this mans "worries" over the divorce issue..and the clause his children do not suffer if he 'fails' at his marraige..being the priority and not his concern if "his wife" suffers in the event this happens..that is a huge red flag to me..

      But a "pre-nup" aggreement from my standpoint is putting a contract of a man above and beyond the marital contract of a biblical marraige..it's providing for "conditions" of failure..not commitments to success IMHO..

      It does not sit well with me..and I am concerned that this is also a sign of how "big" this man's step of faith is with much when he approaches the sanctity of the marraige bond.

      That it would become a "dagger" to encourage him to not undertake the challanges of his commitments in respect to the gravity of them in the event were they to reach an impass and his perceptions of headship relied upon "money" as his assurance he did not need to reevaluate if he was wrong over some issue..that this could become a weapon, rather than remain a tool.

      In otherwords their "onenness" would not be in balance or actually "real" in terms of the vested commitment..from his end of it.

      Why I was shocked, that he Pastor "trivialized this" scripturally.

      It also made me wonder once again about if prenups are ever proper when it comes to Christian marraiges as a form of acceptable , in terms of counciling them as acceptable scriptural stewardship by any Pastor.

      First time I ever heard of this or was personally vested in regard to the long term implications of anothers welfare in respect to participating in this practice.

      Hope others can offer some insights into this and if they have anything to contribute from a Pastor's perspective.
      Last edited by Amazedgrace21; Oct 31st 2007, 02:13 PM. Reason: sp
      "On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand; all other ground is sinking sand, all other ground is sinking sand." My Hope Is Built on Nothing Less, Edward Mote

      Comment


      • #4
        i dont necessarily see it as we not trusting this person. I think it is wise. We may trust them when we marry them, but down the road somethings might happen to make them lose trust.

        Comment


        • #5
          Your friend loves his money too much....so much, that it is getting in the way of his view of a biblical marriage.

          If he believes in 'til death do us part' (her too)...this should never be an option.

          Comment


          • #6
            If they feel a pre-nup is necessary, then the seed of doubt in their marriage has already been planted. Marriage is the everlasting bond between a man and woman. Therefore, unless they know in their hearts that they are meant to be together forever, they have no business getting married, IMHO.
            Jeremy, a bondservant of the Lord.

            Today is a good day to die for Christ.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by mccain22 View Post
              i dont necessarily see it as we not trusting this person. I think it is wise. We may trust them when we marry them, but down the road somethings might happen to make them lose trust.
              Why would you want a pre-nuptial agreement if not to protect yourself against betrayal? Not wishing to be too brutal about it:

              A pre-nup is to protect your assets in the event of a break-up

              The desire to protect against a break-up suggests you are afraid of a break-up

              If you are afraid of a break-up perhaps you aren't ready to commit "til death do us part"
              24 August 2013 - I've decided to take a break from a number of internet forums, including this one, for my own reasons.
              I expect to be back at some time in the future, although at present don't know when that will be.
              I've been here just a few days shy of six years, and those six years have been greatly blessed.

              ---

              1Jn 4:1 NKJV Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
              1Th 5:21-22 NKJV Test all things; hold fast what is good. (22) Abstain from every form of evil.



              Comment


              • #8
                I think you hit the nail on the head Tango with what disturbs me..that and this one other thing..

                The contingency of this mans concerns regarding his "fidelity" issues with his behavior being the one where he is concerned his kids do not suffer just "throws me for a loop"..because it ommited responsibility for his wife for life...if "he is in the wrong".

                My friendship with the gentleman is simply not on the same level as with the prospective bride..her standing is impeccable before all her know her and have knowledge of her circumstances.

                While I can not vouch for his character beyond the limited view I have of it..I found nothing objectionable and again, very likable and respectable..I admire much about his walk as a Christian and up until this point nothing "concerning" regarding his beliefs in so much as we have had many discussions.

                She is struggling with the issue of entering into this contract as a "cross your fingers and hope for the best oath" before men that superceeds what she is already prepared to abide by before God entering to covenent with God..and I think she has a valid concern..

                She's not interested in "his money"..or taking him for a ride..and understands the implications of his concerns for the younger child and both boys..while they are basically dependent upon their father until they reach emancipation in regard to making the transition into being financially independent..the rest "boggles her"..

                It's not a community property state or are their any laws in this state where he would have to exercise due caution to keep the state out of his affairs either..

                I did go and do some research about this..and there is no biblical sanction against it..and at one time marraige contracts were practiced..so it seems to fall under the condition, "while all things are permissable, not all things are profitable to the Glory of God.."

                I guess my take is simply this..the pre-nup may be "profitable" to the welfare of the kids and protection of the money..it certainly is not profitable to the Glory of God when prioritizing contingencies for a divorce that one is going to enter into a covenent before God ,that is never going to take place,she will be his wife until her death or his in these circumstances.

                I am very dissapointed with the Pastor for not appoaching this more proactively on behalf of setting aside the pre nuptial agreement and simply using other ways to make assurances for the boys welfare as in a living trust.

                In my heart of hearts my instinct is to advise my friend to step back out of this and simply trust God to provide the resolution even if it means this engagment does not lead to marraige. That it would not be "emotional blackmail' on her part to make this a condition of remaining in the engagement and that she needs her peace with God before she needs to make her fiance at peace with his fears over the money.

                PS
                I am also surprised the Pastor did not "pick up" that this man brought this forward at the late time he did and well after she had become very emotionally committed to him..between the engagement and setting the marraige date..and AFTER several counseling sessions..that is certainly a red flag of sorts if nothing else about his ability to anticipate and put her needs before his.
                Last edited by Amazedgrace21; Oct 31st 2007, 10:27 PM. Reason: sp added the PS
                "On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand; all other ground is sinking sand, all other ground is sinking sand." My Hope Is Built on Nothing Less, Edward Mote

                Comment


                • #9
                  Some things are so much less complicated without money muddying the equation

                  Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
                  24 August 2013 - I've decided to take a break from a number of internet forums, including this one, for my own reasons.
                  I expect to be back at some time in the future, although at present don't know when that will be.
                  I've been here just a few days shy of six years, and those six years have been greatly blessed.

                  ---

                  1Jn 4:1 NKJV Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
                  1Th 5:21-22 NKJV Test all things; hold fast what is good. (22) Abstain from every form of evil.



                  Comment


                  • #10
                    So true and so sad because it is Tango.

                    I look back on all the years of struggling with four of my own, a single mom..and so many challanges the "average bear" never faces along with the normal ones of life. It's not much different now because I am on disability and it's a very modest income indeed..but I don't mind..I am simply grateful I have "just enough"..and often a little to spare when kids show up looking for "vittles".

                    if anything , at 51 yrs old, I look around and chuckle all the time some of the things laying around have longer life expectencies than I probably do..

                    I have to honestly say I never felt more contentment and peace by simply relying on the Lord and taking things day to day..that the free things in life were often the most priceless..God has been so kind and generous in so many ways and my kids wanted for 'nothing'...just can't imagine sitting around worrying about all my "stuff" after I'm gone and where it will land or whose hands it will land in.

                    how vain indeed!
                    "On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand; all other ground is sinking sand, all other ground is sinking sand." My Hope Is Built on Nothing Less, Edward Mote

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Amazedgrace21 View Post
                      Honestly, I have some pretty strong feelings about this..whichis why I don't want to allow these to be a factor in a response for advice for a dear friend over this,

                      Here's the situation..he's a widower, one child is half way through college, the other only 12 yrs old, owns his home, has a large pension from one jobhe worked at for 29 yrs, has started a new career, is contemplating his own businesin the near future as he is only 53 yrs old.He is an only child, will inherit a sizeable estate when his father passes away who is also a widower and in his late 80's.

                      She is 51 yrs., her children are raised, her husband is remarried, left her with the short end of the stick as in no assetsor retirement , she owns her own mobilehome , car, and has a modest income but pretty much lived pay check to pay check while raising her own children absent the former husbands financial assistance..was the stay at home parent before this..so there will be no time for her to ever actually establish the earning potential her fiance has..or set up a retirement plan that will cover her needs absent working for as long as possible.

                      Her fiance wants them to sign and enter into a prenuptual agreement where the bulk of the assets, home and grandfather to the boys estate is put under protection and seperation for the son's in the event he were to die..so in effect she is supposed to sell of any of her belongings, her home. etc..when they get married, move in with him, keep working and inthe event he dies..she is on her own..with a very small allowance set aside to help her get back on her feet again..

                      And this is supposed to stand from now until the youngest child turns 24 yrs old...or 12 yrs from now..that and he will only match and contribute the amount she earns as "joint assets", the rest set aside for his sons.but they will stay in his home which she will never be a co-owner of but will be expected to contribute to the upkeep of as "the wife"..

                      If they divorce, she gets nothing..even if he were to be at fault..because she would have been equitably compensated by this arrangement..

                      I was a bit shocked to hear this..but both profess to be Christians and he is arguing his biblical responsibilites to his children justify this request and refuses to get married to anyone who will not abide by these terms..to "protect his children".

                      Is he right?..something seems very wrong with this "conditional" approach to marraige where it is supposed to be two Christians entering a biblical marraige where there should be no divorce "down the road" or anticipating failure and preparing with a pre-emptive strike here towards ones spouse.

                      I am very interested in what responses are offered and how to council my friend...so have at it and don't hold back any punches..

                      YSIC,
                      Grace
                      I haven't read any replies yet, so I don't know how others feel.
                      But I feel that it is wrong.

                      I would think that if you agree to marry someone, you do so KNOWING that the Lord put the whole thing together. In essence, I think a pre-nup shows a lack of trust in the Lord, plain and simple.

                      It saddens me that this man could die and his wife would not receive anything (if I read the post right), and he is okay with that.

                      I'm all for protecting your children and making sure that they will be taken care of, but the Word tells us that we are to put our spouses above all except the Lord.

                      I hope this guy spends some serious time in prayer over this.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It sounded in the original post that a good deal of the hesitance is not down to the threat of divorce, but of the wife favouring her natural children over the husband's son in the event of the husband's death. To me it still betrays this fellow's lack of trust in his wife-to-be, and her devotion to raising his son as one of her own.

                        In this case it doesn't sound like anybody has divorce on the brain, but a prenuptial agreement always means somebody has an angle they want to play.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Both of you folks hit the nail on the head with this fellas concerns for "his children" being a huge priority..nor would I call that wrong...and perhaps prudent to set aside a mechanism to provide for them..many do..


                          It's the fact he has determined it would be right to allocate a set amount of income and assets for his 'fiance/wife" no greater than what is equal to what she can bring to the marraige, then leave the rest for his sons out of legal reach..for anyone "but them" for the duration of "his life" and,

                          In the event "he" somehow down the road fouls this up..thatthey don't suffer financially as a result of him ruininghis marraige and somehow "forgetting" that if he does this, its HIS WIFE, that wil be the one harmed here first and foremost..

                          If she commits her life to him for 15 yrs..and on the 15th year, he "goes nuts" and commits adultery or finds someoen else more to his suiting..he can legally emacipate his money from the divorce..and technichally, all his wife would get would be what she brought into the marraige and shown the door..

                          I believe in the eventof his death there would be a modest life insurance policy inforce for her but the rest would roll over to his son's andor their children at the time if I understand this correctly.

                          Now if this were a first marraige, both starting out from scratch..that would not fly..obviously, but they are in their fifties..so they each have their own "assets"

                          It's screwy to say the least..15 yrs from now she would be 66 yrs old..while boththe boys would be 39 yrs old and 27 yrs old, assuming they are responsible young adults, married or set up on their own, healthy and situated in life..
                          Dad sees a contingency that at 67 yrs old he decides he wants a new spring bride..becasue it "happenes"..now he walks away and his wife is left back in 2008 with exactly what she had in 2008 to live on for the balance of her life and has to go out and strt over at 66 yrs old..

                          I personally find this obnoxious and just absolutely unacceptable for a Pastor to ignore this "reality" being incorporated into a "possibility" and say that there isno danger or scriptural basis to challange this man's reasons for wanting a pre-nup.

                          If nothing else "if" I had been the Pastor, I would have challanged this and said.."well"..

                          "considering the obvious wrongness if you did commit this hypothetical sin, how about you set asside 1/3 for your boys , 1/3 for God and the rest for your wife, make this ireevocable ..and that should solve the problem!"

                          Marraige is not a 50:50 proposition..its a 200% one, both bring 100% to it!
                          "On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand; all other ground is sinking sand, all other ground is sinking sand." My Hope Is Built on Nothing Less, Edward Mote

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            If I were the woman I would not do it. Clearly this man loves his material possessions and money more than he does the idea of spending the rest of his life with someone he loves. Remember what Jesus said about rich men entering the kingdom of heaven, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. We are told that we are possessed by our possessions and this man clearly is. I do not want to seem like I am judging him because we all fall short, but he is clearly living in the flesh.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Would the pastor who is counseling then happen to be the pastor of a church that the man gives some significant amount of $ to?

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