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  • Steven3, #102
    The times of restitution are referring to the restored state of Adam before the fall. Pentecost brought this to pass by the promise of the new covenant which Jesus brought in at the cross. All that remained was for His enemies to be removed for this restoration to be complete - the other half of the prophecy. Although ultimately the resurrection is when we will be in a sinless state - it begins when we are born again and our sin is forgiven. That is when we are reconciled in order to have fellowship with God. If the power of God's Spiriit is not indwelling you, then you have no seed in you to survive death when it comes. It is the new man who is raised to life and must be present now. This is the seal we have of this promise which proof is Jesus risen from the dead.
    Robin

    Truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established that, unless one loves the truth, he cannot know it. - Blaise Pascal
    And Jesus saith unto him [Thomas], I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6
    Discernment is not needed in things that differ, but in things that appear to be the same. - Miles Sanford
    Those who compromise with Christ’s enemies may be reckoned with them. - C.H. Spurgeon

    Comment


    • Hi Dizzy,
      I don't know what to say to you since your "futurist" glasses seem to be preventing you from seeing the spiritual blessings we have in Christ now. Are we not redeemed now? Has not the Holy Spirit been given to us when we come to faith in Christ? Is Jesus not ruling from heaven in His kingdom which is spiritual in the lives of those who are His? As priests of Christ are not we able to come boldly before the throne of grace now, where Jesus Hiimself intercedes on our behalf?

      Upon studying this verse I believe this is talking about the tribulation where those who do not believe in Christ who is that prophet and they will not hear Him will be destroyed from among the people being the true believers. And then restitution of all things will happen, Israel will be restored as witnesses among the nations and Christ will be King over the earth in the millennial kingdom.

      The scroll that the Lamb opens is the title deed to the earth the seals, trumpet, and bowls are His judgement on the wicked of the earth whilst He takes back all authority and His Kingdom.
      Jesus received the kingdom when He ascended to the throne of His Father. This is what Daniel saw in his vision in 7:13. It is those who believe who have the testimony of Jesus - which testimony is the spirit of prophecy (Rev 19:10). What is being revealed is what Jesus as the Christ has accomplished and is continuing to bring to fruition even now.

      Until we can see Revelation as it applies to those in the 1st Avent and forward, I think we are missing a lot that would bring us into a fuller knowledge of who He is. If we instead spend our time trying to imagine things we think are not fulfilled, what is that going to do to the Hope we have in His return?

      What I see happening is that we want to give unbelieving Israel a hope they do not have, but in doing this we have to deny what Jesus has already accomplished for us. Revelation was given to a people under persecution to give them hope and strength to overcome in the times they were in - that last generation of Israel which saw Messiah's arrival to bring in a spiritual kingdom, a new covenant and a new power by which to live; so that we could be reconciled to God by grace thru faith in what Christ has done. It is Jesus as the Christ that is being revealed to us, and it is not about a future hope for a future generation in Israel who continues to reject Jesus. The blessing this book contains is for those who look to Jesus and believe. And we are to be very careful that we neither add to those words nor take anything away that is in there, lest we lose our part in the New Jerusalem (Rev 22:19).

      I know many say that eschatology is not about "salvation issues", but that warning alone tells us it is. The book of life, the right to eat from the tree of life, the living waters and the New Jerusalem, are all about the hope that we have now. We must hold fast to our hope by faith if we are to have a part in these things that await us when He returns - and brings our salvation. Which is exactly what those in the 1st century had to do in the times they were in if they were to be refreshed in spirit in the hope that they professed as they faced those things that were coming upon that generation.
      Robin

      Truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established that, unless one loves the truth, he cannot know it. - Blaise Pascal
      And Jesus saith unto him [Thomas], I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6
      Discernment is not needed in things that differ, but in things that appear to be the same. - Miles Sanford
      Those who compromise with Christ’s enemies may be reckoned with them. - C.H. Spurgeon

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DIZZY View Post
        Hi Shirley,
        Jesus will rule from the earth before He destroys everything and returns to His heavenly kingdom.
        Whilst Christ rules from earth yes there are till sinners on it, they are born of the believers who went into the millennial reign. Yes there are nations, and born again believers they are those who are saved during the tribulation and they go into the millennial kingdom alive unchanged. They do not need to be changed because it is still an earthly kingdom that Christ is reigning from.
        Yes Israel is there in the earthly reign of Christ for they are the ones that lead the nations to Christ. Zecheriah 8.

        How can this be because Christ is reigning from the earth He has not yet returned to His fathers house. He can not return to His Fathers house until He has put His enemies under His feet.

        1 Corinthians 15:25
        For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

        Yes there are two different kingdoms if you want to say it that way but not at the same time.

        I'd prefer to say there is an earthly reign and then there is the everlasting kingdom of God when Christ has put His enemies under His feet.

        In the earthly kingdom Israel is restored and the church reigns over them with Christ.

        In the everlasting kingdom all those who believe and put their faith in the Lord will be with Christ and we all will worship Him as Lord of all. He shall be our God and we sshall be His people and there will be no need for a temple because God and the Lamb are its temple.

        Revelation 21:22
        I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
        Dizzy,

        The Bible only speaks of one kingdom of God, one kingdom of heaven, one kingdom of Christ. And that One kingdom is not earthly and temporal but heavenly and everlasting.

        There are two kingdoms: the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan.

        There are only two peoples of this world: those in Christ and those who are not in Christ.

        Those in Christ are in the kingdom of God.

        Those not in Christ are in the kingdom of Satan.

        Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


        Luke tells us in Acts 1 that Jesus will bodily come back once the same as He ascended bodily to heaven one time. I don't understand what you mean about Jesus having to "return to his Father's house" before he can reign?


        Shirley

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ShirleyFord View Post
          Dizzy,

          The Bible only speaks of one kingdom of God, one kingdom of heaven, one kingdom of Christ. And that One kingdom is not earthly and temporal but heavenly and everlasting.

          There are two kingdoms: the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan.

          There are only two peoples of this world: those in Christ and those who are not in Christ.

          Those in Christ are in the kingdom of God.

          Those not in Christ are in the kingdom of Satan.

          Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


          Luke tells us in Acts 1 that Jesus will bodily come back once the same as He ascended bodily to heaven one time. I don't understand what you mean about Jesus having to "return to his Father's house" before he can reign?


          Shirley
          Hi Shirley,

          Yes we are in Christ's kingdom which started when He died on the cross.
          I did not say He had to return to His Father's house before He can reign.
          What I said was, when Christ returns He will reign on earth in the millennial kingdom which is still His kingdom, and He will not return to His Fathers house until He has put His enemies under His feet.

          Who reigns here on this earth now?
          John 8:31-32



          31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”


          Dizzy

          Comment


          • Originally posted by DIZZY View Post
            Hi Shirley,

            Yes we are in Christ's kingdom which started when He died on the cross.
            I did not say He had to return to His Father's house before He can reign.
            What I said was, when Christ returns He will reign on earth in the millennial kingdom which is still His kingdom, and He will not return to His Fathers house until He has put His enemies under His feet.
            Thanks Dizzy...I see now where I read it wrong.

            But I still don't understand what you mean by: "He will not return to His Fathers house until He has put His enemies under His feet."

            From what Paul is saying in 1 Cor. 15, it seems that Jesus doesn't leave His Father's house until all enemies are under His feet. Then He returns from His Father's house in heaven and destroys them all, his last enemy being death.

            Who reigns here on this earth now?
            We who are alive in Christ and physically alive on the earth are reigning with Christ in His kingdom over the kingdom of darkness in our own lives that would try to stop us from sharing the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ with those who sit in darkness bound by the chains that the devil has them bound with, who, as we were, have no hope until they turn to Jesus and He sets them free.

            Shirley

            Comment


            • Hi Mograce
              I have to ask; does your reading assume that Christ is not coming back to this earth?

              Originally posted by Mograce2U View Post
              Steven3, #102
              The times of restitution are referring to the restored state of Adam before the fall. Pentecost brought this to pass by the promise of the new covenant
              That is perhaps partly true in one small aspect, i.e. in that a dozen apostles receiving the gift of tongues restored the pre-Babel linguistic unity. However 12 apostles speaking languages did not remove sin or death from the earth so cannot be said to have reversed the fall or restored Adam. The proof that it did not is shown by Christ still promising Eden as a future event in Rev2:7.

              Sorry, "restore all things" means "restore all things" - not just pre-Babel languages.

              Pentecost didn't restore Adam, in that he's still as cold stone dead as Abraham, David, and (now) Peter and Paul.
              God bless
              Steven

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mograce2U View Post
                I don't know what to say to you since your "futurist" glasses seem to be preventing you from seeing the spiritual blessings we have in Christ now.
                I have my heavenly glasses on so that I can see the future as God tells it.
                I do not have blinkers on that stop me from seeing the whole picture.

                John 3:12
                If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?


                Are we not redeemed now? Yes
                Has not the Holy Spirit been given to us when we come to faith in Christ? Yes
                Is Jesus not ruling from heaven in His kingdom which is spiritual in the lives of those who are His? No the ruler of this world is Satan and Jesus sent us a helper to guide us while we are still here.

                It is the Holy Spirit the comforter which we have and He guides us into an understanding and knowledge of God's word. he leads us and quides us through out our walk with Christ.

                John14:25-29
                25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28 You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.
                29 “And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe.

                As priests of Christ are not we able to come boldly before the throne of grace now, where Jesus Hiimself intercedes on our behalf? Yes

                dizzy[/quote]Upon studying this verse I believe this is talking about the tribulation where those who do not believe in Christ who is that prophet and they will not hear Him will be destroyed from among the people being the true believers. And then restitution of all things will happen, Israel will be restored as witnesses among the nations and Christ will be King over the earth in the millennial kingdom.

                The scroll that the Lamb opens is the title deed to the earth the seals, trumpet, and bowls are His judgement on the wicked of the earth whilst He takes back all authority and His Kingdom.
                [/quote]

                Jesus received the kingdom when He ascended to the throne of His Father. This is what Daniel saw in his vision in 7:13. It is those who believe who have the testimony of Jesus - which testimony is the spirit of prophecy (Rev 19:10). What is being revealed is what Jesus as the Christ has accomplished and is continuing to bring to fruition even now.

                Until we can see Revelation as it applies to those in the 1st Avent and forward, I think we are missing a lot that would bring us into a fuller knowledge of who He is. If we instead spend our time trying to imagine things we think are not fulfilled, what is that going to do to the Hope we have in His return?
                What I see happening is that we want to give unbelieving Israel a hope they do not have, but in doing this we have to deny what Jesus has already accomplished for us.
                Deuteronomy 11:21
                so that your days and the days of your sons may be multiplied on the land which the LORD swore to your fathers to give them, as long as the heavens remain above the earth.

                It is not I who give the Israelites this hope it is God, and Jesus is not deniedanything that is due to Him because Israel has to repent and return to their Messiah before any of this can happen.

                Numbers 23:19
                " God is not a man, that He should lie,Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it?Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

                Isaiah 10:19-21
                19 Then the rest of the trees of his forest
                Will be so few in number
                That a child may write them.
                20 And it shall come to pass in that day
                That the remnant of Israel,
                And such as have escaped of the house of Jacob,
                Will never again depend on him who defeated them,
                But will depend on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
                21 The remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob,
                To the Mighty God.

                Jeremiah 31:1
                “At the same time,” says the LORD, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people.”


                Revelation was given to a people under persecution to give them hope and strength to overcome in the times they were in - that last generation of Israel which saw Messiah's arrival to bring in a spiritual kingdom, a new covenant and a new power by which to live; so that we could be reconciled to God by grace thru faith in what Christ has done. It is Jesus as the Christ that is being revealed to us, and it is not about a future hope for a future generation in Israel who continues to reject Jesus. The blessing this book contains is for those who look to Jesus and believe. And we are to be very careful that we neither add to those words nor take anything away that is in there, lest we lose our part in the New Jerusalem (Rev 22:19).
                The book of Revelation is a book of the future when the church no longer exists and God is dealing with Israel and the nations. After Revelation 3 you never hear of the church again. Revelation 4 onwards speaks of God's wrath on the earth and Israel turning to their Messiah, the 144,000 Jews who witness during the tribulation, those saved in the tribulation and those who are beheaded for their belief in the tribulation. Not once do you hear the church mentioned other than the 24 elders on the thrones or worshiping God and the Lamb. I see the future and the picture painted is not a pretty one.

                Revelation 1:3
                Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

                I know many say that eschatology is not about "salvation issues", but that warning alone tells us it is. The book of life, the right to eat from the tree of life, the living waters and the New Jerusalem, are all about the hope that we have now. We must hold fast to our hope by faith if we are to have a part in these things that await us when He returns - and brings our salvation.
                Do we not have salvation now? Have not our sins already been forgiven? Have we not already been delivered from our sins by what Christ done for us on the cross?

                He is not bringing salvation with Him when He returns. He is bringing judgment.

                Revelation 6:17 asks who is able to stand in the day of God's wrath and there is only one answer given to this.

                Revelation 6:17
                17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

                So who is able to stand?

                From what I gather you believe the things in Revelation have already happened to Israel. And there is no earthly reign.

                If there is no earthly reign then why are there thrones of judgement? And those who have been beheaded reigning with Christ and where are they reigning from?
                Those who hang of the sleeves of Israel asking to be taken to their King. Where are they when this happns?

                Revelation is not a book of punishment on Israel it is a book of salvation for Israel because they repent and turn to their Messiah and punishment on those who opressed Israel and God's chosen people the believers.
                John 8:31-32



                31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”


                Dizzy

                Comment


                • Hi Shirley
                  Originally posted by ShirleyFord View Post
                  From what Paul is saying in 1 Cor. 15, it seems that Jesus doesn't leave His Father's house until all enemies are under His feet. Then He returns from His Father's house in heaven and destroys them all, his last enemy being death.
                  He comes back and by coming back puts death under his feet. If we follow 15:20-25 then death isn't under his feet before he leaves heaven because the dead are still dead and the living all soon will be.

                  We who are alive in Christ and physically alive on the earth are reigning with Christ in His kingdom....
                  I don't believe that I am already a king, or that you are already queen, or that either of us, or anyone else, is right now "reigning with Christ in his kingdom". If we were then Paul saying the below to Timothy (who was already a baptised Christian) would be meaningless:

                  2 Timothy 2:12 if we endure, then we will [future tense] also reign with him; if we deny him, then he also will [future tense] deny us;

                  Even in Revelation (which I am loathe to quote as none of us has any idea what the book means), "reign" is still future:

                  Revelation 5:10 and you have made [past perfect] them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall [future] reign on the earth.”

                  God bless
                  Steven

                  Comment


                  • As a footnote to Dizzy's quite reasonable point.

                    Anyone promoting a theological paradigm or schema which has the Lord Jesus coming back to judge everyone (without exception), to divide everyone into sheep and goats, automatically requires that Christ send his angels to enter the maternity wards and kindergartens of the world and either kill or save babies. In other words any theological paradigm which doesn't allow some kind of transitional period for one generation (whether for pre-flood or post-flood lifespans) has Christ either commissioning a larger slaughter of the innocents than Herod the Great, or alternatively handing out immortality automatically below a certain age threshold.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ShirleyFord View Post
                      Thanks Dizzy...I see now where I read it wrong.

                      But I still don't understand what you mean by: "He will not return to His Fathers house until He has put His enemies under His feet."
                      1 Corinthians 15:24-26
                      24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

                      This is talking about when Christ takes back the earth from atan and restores it to its former glory and He reigns for the 1000yrs. He has to reign in the millennial kingdom until all His enemies are put under His feet. At the end of the millennial reign the last enemy destroyed is death at the white throne judgement.

                      From what Paul is saying in 1 Cor. 15, it seems that Jesus doesn't leave His Father's house until all enemies are under His feet. Then He returns from His Father's house in heaven and destroys them all, his last enemy being death.
                      I am affraid you are reading the passage wrong. Christ has to return so that He can put His enemies under His feet. We know He returns at the end of the tribulation this is when He reigns from.

                      We who are alive in Christ and physically alive on the earth are reigning with Christ in His kingdom over the kingdom of darkness in our own lives that would try to stop us from sharing the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ with those who sit in darkness bound by the chains that the devil has them bound with, who, as we were, have no hope until they turn to Jesus and He sets them free.
                      Shirley
                      No my dear we are not reigning with Christ at this moment. Satan is reigning in this world at the moment. We are commissioned to spread the gospel message we can not bind Satan and his demonds. Yes as christians we are apart of Christ's kingdom which is in us.
                      John 8:31-32



                      31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”


                      Dizzy

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
                        Hi Shirley
                        He comes back and by coming back puts death under his feet. If we follow 15:20-25 then death isn't under his feet before he leaves heaven because the dead are still dead and the living all soon will be.

                        I don't believe that I am already a king, or that you are already queen, or that either of us, or anyone else, is right now "reigning with Christ in his kingdom". If we were then Paul saying the below to Timothy (who was already a baptised Christian) would be meaningless:

                        2 Timothy 2:12 if we endure, then we will [future tense] also reign with him; if we deny him, then he also will [future tense] deny us;

                        Even in Revelation (which I am loathe to quote as none of us has any idea what the book means), "reign" is still future:

                        Revelation 5:10 and you have made [past perfect] them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall [future] reign on the earth.”

                        God bless
                        Steven
                        Hi Steven,
                        I find the book of Revelation a wonderful book to study and with studying this book you see the things of the book unfolding. It is not a hard book to understand. I use to be affraid of this book only because I didn't understand it. A good way to understand this book is to allow the Holy spirit to guide you through the book. But this book of Revelation is also portraited in other books of the bible aswell. So you need to bring all books together to understand this one book.
                        John 8:31-32



                        31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”


                        Dizzy

                        Comment


                        • Hi Dizz
                          Originally posted by DIZZY View Post
                          Hi Steven,
                          I find the book of Revelation a wonderful book to study and with studying this book you see the things of the book unfolding. It is not a hard book to understand. I use to be affraid of this book only because I didn't understand it.
                          It's not that I am "afraid" of the book, it's that symbols and prophecies are not the place to find basic answers to life and death 101.

                          So you need to bring all books together to understand this one book.
                          Fine in theory, problem is, call me a sceptic, but I've nver yet met a Christian who was willing to put in the hours in the OT that that would require. Besides, in your case, the view that you're presenting, that Abraham is still waiting for what he was promised, and that Israel still has a role in prophecy, is well supported from the other 65 books, so there's no need to resort to Revelation.

                          God bless
                          Steven

                          Comment


                          • My view is that Jesus' death and resurrection brought about the long awaited return from exile and the renewal of Israel, but in quite a different way than expected. Israel was renewed in the formation of a Jew-Gentile community where the Spirit of God personally dwells.

                            The Son of Man figure of Daniel ascends to the Ancient of Days to receive a Kingdom that he hands over to his people. Jesus interprets this in light of his death, resurrection, and ascension.
                            "And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven" (Mar 14:62).

                            "Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven" (Mat 26:64).

                            "Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God" (Luk 22:69).

                            "And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power" (Mar 9:1).

                            "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom" (Mat 16:28).

                            "But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God" (Luk 9:27).
                            Jesus preached about the Kingdom of God, but he sees the Kingdom as coming from the future backward into his present through his ministry.
                            "But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you" (Mat 12:28).

                            "And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you" (Luk 10:9).

                            "But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you" (Luk 11:20).

                            "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you" (Luk 17:21).
                            Jesus was bringing God's justice to Earth through his ministry, death, resurrection, and sending of the Holy Spirit.

                            Jesus currently reigns, the problem is that he has not yet defeated all his enemies. The Psalm so often quoted of Jesus' Lordship reads thus:
                            "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies" (Psa 110:1-2).
                            Jesus reigns in the midst of his enemies at the very moment he sits at the right hand of God. Jesus' reign is progressive. The last enemy that will be defeated is death.

                            On the other hand, the Kingdom of God is spoken of as future because the renewal of creation that the here-and-now Kingdom of God, renewed Spirit-filled community represents has not yet completed. The Kingdom will fully come through resurrection. This is what Paul is talking about when he speaks of the "the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God" (Rom 8:19).

                            N.T. Wright makes the most sense of all this. He explains that resurrection was to take place in the age to come. However, the resurrection was split into two: Jesus first then the rest of his people. Therefore, Jesus' resurrection inagurated the new age and the Kingdom of God. We are at, perhaps, the overlap of two ages. The renewal of Israel has happened through Jesus' resurrection; Jesus' temple was destroyed, but re-created on the third day. Now we are the Temple of God as the body of Christ (1Co 3:16; cf. Joh 2:19).

                            As for the geographic land of Israel, a woman once said to Jesus, "Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship" (Joh 4:19) but receives the answer "Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. ... But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him" (Joh 4:21, 23). Our citizenship is in the Jerusalem from above, the mother of us all, God's Kingdom which is in and from Heaven, not geographic Jerusalem.

                            I believe the Jew does has the advantage (Rom 3:1-2), but I do not believe geographic Israel has any role in prophecy anymore, and that is precisely what made Jesus' message so profound.

                            N.T. Wright has a lot to say about Jesus' teachings (specifically, parables), moreover. Most of them, according to Wright, are about YHWH's return to Zion, not with thunder and cosmic destruction, but with a young, ordinary looking man riding into Jerusalem on a donkey in tears. Wright explains in a conversation with Dunn:
                            "I believe, as a historian and as a Christian, that when Jesus came to Jerusalem on that last journey and told stories about a king or a master coming back to see what was going on and to judge people, what he had in mind was to explain what he was doing in coming at last to challenge Jerusalem and to explain it by means of telling stories about YHWH returning to Zion. In other words, as I think I say at one key point in the book (I’d love to know what Jimmy thinks of this), when you go back to the Exodus narratives, YHWH is there as a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night with the Israelites in the
                            wilderness. Isaiah 40:5 says:

                            Then the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
                            And all flesh will see it together” (NASB).

                            But it remains an open question as to what that’s going to look like. I believe, and have argued in detail, that Jesus believed that those prophecies of the return of YHWH, the glory of the Lord returning to Zion would not look like a whirlwind, a fire, Ezekiel’s dynamo picture, but would look like a young Jewish prophet riding in tears on a donkey and going off to have a last meal with his friends and die on a cross. In other words, I think Jesus was telling stories about God coming back to explain his own return to Jerusalem. That’s where I find very deep and rich, and very, very high Christology in the mind of Jesus himself, which then gives me a bridge to understand all the other hints which have been picked up in other bits of the tradition.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
                              Hi DizzIt's not that I am "afraid" of the book, it's that symbols and prophecies are not the place to find basic answers to life and death 101.

                              Fine in theory, problem is, call me a sceptic, but I've nver yet met a Christian who was willing to put in the hours in the OT that that would require. Besides, in your case, the view that you're presenting, that Abraham is still waiting for what he was promised, and that Israel still has a role in prophecy, is well supported from the other 65 books, so there's no need to resort to Revelation.

                              God bless
                              Steven
                              So do we just leave Revelation out of the equation when it is a vital part of prophecy?
                              John 8:31-32



                              31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”


                              Dizzy

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                              • Originally posted by cwb View Post
                                I believe that the land will be given after to Israel after Christ returns. In the new heavens and earth the land will just be better.
                                Then you're saying the land they're given when Christ returns is not an everlasting possession because it will be burned up. Remember, in 2 Peter 3:10-12 it says the entire earth will be burned up. So, I guess the land they receive when Christ returns isn't so everlasting afterall, right? So, that would mean that they won't truly receive their everlasting land until this earth is burned up and the new earth is ushered in? The new earth could either be this earth made new or even a brand new earth. I would lean towards the former being the case. Either way, the land you say Israel will receive at Christ's return is not everlasting. Only the land on the new earth will be everlasting. So, if Israel truly will receive everlasting land as a possession it could not happen until the new earth appears. Yet, the new earth is not just for Israelite believers but for all believers. Peter was speaking to Jew and Gentile believers when He said "we...look for new heavens and a new earth".

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