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  • Soj
    replied
    Originally posted by drew View Post
    Here is this same verse in the NASB:

    And now in the NIV

    And now in Youngs Literal Translation

    Clearly, none of these other translations give any implication of a "timeless" future as the KJV admittedly does.
    So your point is what?

    Leave a comment:


  • drew
    replied
    Originally posted by Soj_NZ View Post
    There is always the following scripture:

    Revelation 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
    Here is this same verse in the NASB:

    and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, WHO CREATED HEAVEN AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE EARTH AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE SEA AND THE THINGS IN IT, that there will be delay no longer

    And now in the NIV

    And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay

    And now in Youngs Literal Translation

    and did swear in Him who doth live to the ages of the ages, who did create the heaven and the things in it, and the land and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it -- that time shall not be yet

    Clearly, none of these other translations give any implication of a "timeless" future as the KJV admittedly does.

    Leave a comment:


  • Semi-tortured
    replied
    Originally posted by Soj_NZ View Post
    There is always the following scripture:

    Revelation 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

    I think it is generally accepted that eternity (the next life) is not bound by time limits. The timeline in the Bible when studied out is about 7000 years (4000 yrs before the cross and 3000 yrs after it, we are near the 6000 year mark), prior to this we have eternity past and after this we have eternity future.

    Yes. There shall be time no longer, but does that mean there will be no recognition of forward or backwards? I know our minds can't grasp that, and maybe that's why I believe there will be a form of time, just not the time we have. Deadlines will be gone. Aging and an end will be gone, but I do believe there will be some sort of way we are able to tell certain things. If I'm in heaven and I eat a piece of fruit and I chew it and enjoy it, will that be a memory to me? Will I be able to do things in heaven as soon as I feel like it and not have to wait? I walk through the gate of Jerusalem down the golden path. I obviously have to seperate the gate and the path with something or else there would be no point in having a city where we could come and go. We'd just be "around."

    My brain is sore.

    Leave a comment:


  • Semi-tortured
    replied
    Originally posted by drew View Post
    I submit that the following text from 1 cor 15 shows that Paul thinks our "spiritual" bodies are indeed bodies and not "disembodied" spirits:

    35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

    42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

    The important point is that Paul is using a series of analogies to describe the difference between the present bodies we have and the ones we will get when resurrected. The key thing is, that in all these analogies, distinctions are drawn between things that are nevertheless all still "material" or "physical". Men, animals, and fish are all different kinds of physical bodies. The sun, moon, and stars, are still material bodies despite the fact that they are different kinds or types of material bodies.

    If we take these analogies seriously, we see that Paul is not comparing a material body on the one hand to some kind of disembodied immaterial "thing" on the other - he is instead comparing bodies of one type to bodies of another type. I humbly suggest that people read 1 Corinthians 15 and as soon as they see the word "spiritual" as in "spiritual body", their "Plato goggles" kick in and they assume that Paul must be referring to some kind of disembodied state.

    The analogies suggest otherwise.

    Not to mention the argument that, as per Romans 8:18 and following plus stuff in Isaiah, it appears clear that God is going to redeem and transform creation, not do away with it. If this redeemed creation is not to be our home and if we are not to be physical bodies in it, what purpose does it serve?

    I'm in agreement with you. The Bible says the creation groans. It's waiting to be glorified just as we are. I honestly think that the thought of people turning into these disembodied spirits that float around like a conscious cloud of something is detrimental to the church in bringin in new believers. The salvation message seems to be one of redemption for not only us, but all the creation. Some people have this idea of a bodyless spirit floating in heaven with a harp and singing praise music to God non-stop for all of eternity. How appealing is that for someone who doesn't believe in God and doesn't care. Is that what Earth was originally? Is that the "very good" creation that God placed us in? There's no reason for a city like New Jerusalem if that's what happens. That city is going to be HUGE. It's almost the size of the entire eastern US. A city has roads, dwellings and other things.

    How many people do you think could have been turned to follow Christ if they thought heaven was merely what we have here with no sin instead of becoming some disembodied vapor? It's the sin that has stolen this planet's beauty which is why it groans. It is sin that has made our flesh weak, which is why we need new bodies. I honestly believe we will be rezzed like Jesus was rezzed and live in a perfect paradise here on Earth. A renewed Earth.

    Leave a comment:


  • Soj
    replied
    Originally posted by drew View Post
    I am going to politely disagree. I know of no scripture that suggests that there will be no time in the life to come. I think we get this idea from vague cultural sources and it is really not Biblical. Can you show me where the scriptures teach that in eternity, there will be no time?
    There is always the following scripture:

    Revelation 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

    I think it is generally accepted that eternity (the next life) is not bound by time limits. The timeline in the Bible when studied out is about 7000 years (4000 yrs before the cross and 3000 yrs after it, we are near the 6000 year mark), prior to this we have eternity past and after this we have eternity future.

    Leave a comment:


  • drew
    replied
    Originally posted by Pleroo View Post
    Show me what you've got.
    I submit that the following text from 1 cor 15 shows that Paul thinks our "spiritual" bodies are indeed bodies and not "disembodied" spirits:

    35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

    42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

    The important point is that Paul is using a series of analogies to describe the difference between the present bodies we have and the ones we will get when resurrected. The key thing is, that in all these analogies, distinctions are drawn between things that are nevertheless all still "material" or "physical". Men, animals, and fish are all different kinds of physical bodies. The sun, moon, and stars, are still material bodies despite the fact that they are different kinds or types of material bodies.

    If we take these analogies seriously, we see that Paul is not comparing a material body on the one hand to some kind of disembodied immaterial "thing" on the other - he is instead comparing bodies of one type to bodies of another type. I humbly suggest that people read 1 Corinthians 15 and as soon as they see the word "spiritual" as in "spiritual body", their "Plato goggles" kick in and they assume that Paul must be referring to some kind of disembodied state.

    The analogies suggest otherwise.

    Not to mention the argument that, as per Romans 8:18 and following plus stuff in Isaiah, it appears clear that God is going to redeem and transform creation, not do away with it. If this redeemed creation is not to be our home and if we are not to be physical bodies in it, what purpose does it serve?

    Leave a comment:


  • Semi-tortured
    replied
    Originally posted by rchivers View Post
    Do you think his wounds were present in his new body just to prove he was the same person that was crucified? That would be a real bummer if our new "bodies" reflect the trauma we experienced in life.

    Personally, I think the trauma Jesus suffered was in His new body because in heaven, those holes will be the most beautiful things in the place cause they made it possible for us to be there. Vanity will be gone as will sex, so looks won't be important. I think if someone's "trauma" was a result of something glorifying to God, it could still be with us. Granted, if I'm beheaded for Christ, I hope I don't have to carry around my melon for eternity.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pleroo
    replied
    Originally posted by drew View Post
    I do not have the time now, but later I will try to give the evidence that we should read "spiritual body" not as "free-floating disembodied entity" but rather as "transformed and perfected physical body".
    Show me what you've got.

    Leave a comment:


  • rchivers
    replied
    Originally posted by Semi-tortured View Post
    The spiritual body is still a body though. It is not made of flesh and blood, but rather something else. I feel it will be like Jesus body after his rez. Different, glorified, but not flesh and blood. It obviously couldn't have been flesh and blood because he seemed to come and go as he pleased. He had holes in His body that weren't pouring out blood. And I do believe the earth will be different, but it will be a dwelling place with cities and places to go.

    Do you think his wounds were present in his new body just to prove he was the same person that was crucified? That would be a real bummer if our new "bodies" reflect the trauma we experienced in life.

    Leave a comment:


  • drew
    replied
    Originally posted by Pleroo View Post
    Yes, but the bodies we will be raised with are spiritual bodies.
    I think that to read "spiritual body" as a thing that is not "physical" is to not use the word "spiritual" as Paul does in other parts of 1 Corinthians 15 (if not elsewhere). For Paul, a "spiritual" body has arms, legs, a head, hands, etc. The risen Christ has a "spiritual" body and he obviously has hands, legs, a face, etc.

    I do not have the time now, but later I will try to give the evidence that we should read "spiritual body" not as "free-floating disembodied entity" but rather as "transformed and perfected physical body".

    Leave a comment:


  • Semi-tortured
    replied
    Originally posted by Pleroo View Post
    Yes, but the bodies we will be raised with are spiritual bodies.

    1 Cor 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

    Could this mean that the "transformed earth" may be a spiritual one, which this physical [natural] world is only a shadow of?
    The spiritual body is still a body though. It is not made of flesh and blood, but rather something else. I feel it will be like Jesus body after his rez. Different, glorified, but not flesh and blood. It obviously couldn't have been flesh and blood because he seemed to come and go as he pleased. He had holes in His body that weren't pouring out blood. And I do believe the earth will be different, but it will be a dwelling place with cities and places to go.

    Leave a comment:


  • BigB
    replied
    I agree with Drew. This is just a guess or an opinion but I think we will care about time do to all the revelation prediction such as the 1000 years of peace. After all of revelation has come true who knows maybe time wont mater.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pleroo
    replied
    Originally posted by drew View Post
    Some of my thoughts about the life to come that I suspect will arouse some discussion:

    1. Heaven is nice, but you're not going to be there forever. Heaven, if you like, is the place where we "rest" until we are resurrected bodily and are granted eternal life on a remade and transformed earth. This is what the New Testament teaches (I can provide biblical support).

    2. The idea that we will live out eternity as conscious immaterial "souls" is not in the Scriptures. At our final destination, a remade earth, we will be distinctly "embodied", just like Jesus was after he rose. Paul describes Jesus as the first-fruits and that, at his return, we will be raised bodily. I suggest that Greek ideas about disembodied souls have distorted the true Biblical picture of the life to come.
    Yes, but the bodies we will be raised with are spiritual bodies.

    1 Cor 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

    Could this mean that the "transformed earth" may be a spiritual one, which this physical [natural] world is only a shadow of?

    Leave a comment:


  • Semi-tortured
    replied
    Originally posted by drew View Post
    I am going to politely disagree. I know of no scripture that suggests that there will be no time in the life to come. I think we get this idea from vague cultural sources and it is really not Biblical. Can you show me where the scriptures teach that in eternity, there will be no time?

    Im actually not convinced there is no time either. He speaks of everlasting life. Adam and Eve would have had that type of life had they not sinned, and they had time. The more I read the Bible, the more I'm starting to realize that heaven as we so often think of it will be this earth completely redone. We will have cities (see New Jerusalem). We will have duties. It's the Kingdom of Heaven. A kingdom is a place with a ruler and different people working at different levels. That doesn't mean there is no time. God created the original creation and said it was VERY GOOD. Time was a part of that, as were animals, as were plants. God is eternal which means His mind hasn't changed about the original creation being very good. I just think it's gonna be like creation one, before the fall with more people there at it's inception (the millions and millions of Christians). That's how I view it. God created the habitat, then the man. He created the habitat special for us. We wrecked it. He's gonna fix it along with us so we don't wreck it again, cause we totally would, even with all Christians and Jesus there in our presence, I still think we would screw it up without Him renewing our souls.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pleroo
    replied
    Originally posted by drew View Post
    I am going to politely disagree. I know of no scripture that suggests that there will be no time in the life to come. I think we get this idea from vague cultural sources and it is really not Biblical. Can you show me where the scriptures teach that in eternity, there will be no time?
    I'm going to jump in here, if I may. I don't know anything for certainty about this but here is something to consider. We are told that God is unchanging. Change relates to time, I believe, so perhaps it is possible to say that God is "outside of" time. Looked at from that perspective, and from the fact that we are told that we now have the Life of Christ in us, perhaps it is possible to say that we also, once our flesh dies and we are no longer bound to the physical world, will live in a spiritual realm which is "outside of time".

    It's all beyond my intellectual grasp, frankly, but it is a theory I've heard put forth, and I think it may have some merit.

    Leave a comment:

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