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  • #31
    Originally posted by drew View Post
    My point is that there is at least a possibility that the KJV translation is misleading since it implies something entirely different than the three other translations do.

    Oh boy. You may have just opened a can of King James sized worms.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Semi-tortured View Post
      Oh boy. You may have just opened a can of King James sized worms.
      What? You mean some people think the KJV is a superior translation?

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      • #33
        Originally posted by drew View Post
        What? You mean some people think the KJV is a superior translation?


        There are a few with that opinion.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by drew View Post
          I submit that the following text from 1 cor 15 shows that Paul thinks our "spiritual" bodies are indeed bodies and not "disembodied" spirits:

          35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

          42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

          The important point is that Paul is using a series of analogies to describe the difference between the present bodies we have and the ones we will get when resurrected. The key thing is, that in all these analogies, distinctions are drawn between things that are nevertheless all still "material" or "physical". Men, animals, and fish are all different kinds of physical bodies. The sun, moon, and stars, are still material bodies despite the fact that they are different kinds or types of material bodies.

          If we take these analogies seriously, we see that Paul is not comparing a material body on the one hand to some kind of disembodied immaterial "thing" on the other - he is instead comparing bodies of one type to bodies of another type. I humbly suggest that people read 1 Corinthians 15 and as soon as they see the word "spiritual" as in "spiritual body", their "Plato goggles" kick in and they assume that Paul must be referring to some kind of disembodied state.

          The analogies suggest otherwise.

          Not to mention the argument that, as per Romans 8:18 and following plus stuff in Isaiah, it appears clear that God is going to redeem and transform creation, not do away with it. If this redeemed creation is not to be our home and if we are not to be physical bodies in it, what purpose does it serve?

          I don't think of living in the spiritual as a "disembodied" state. The Word says we are sown a natural body but raised with a spiritual body. Just like a seed for a plant is nothing at all like the plant which comes forth, I think that our spiritual bodies will be so completely different, and gloriously so, than our physical bodies that we can't begin to imagine. And the new heaven and earth would then be comparable in that they are a spiritual heaven and earth beyond our capability of understanding. So, I agree with you that we won't be disembodied but I don't know that we can have any concept, really, of just what a spiritual body will be.

          And if there is still "time" in the spiritual realm, I think it too will be transformed into something which we, as we are now, would find unrecognizable.

          As a side note, I'm not sure how much we can look to all the Revelation passages which are being quoted to support a timeless existance as well as a physical existance. Revelation is symbolic of spiritual truths, so I think we need to look beyond the literal.

          Of course, all of this is jmho and I won't be surprised if I'm proven wrong in the end.
          Our destiny is to find our identity within the circumference of His identity--to express His nature, character, etc. ever revealing more of Him. ~ R&D Prinzing

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          • #35
            Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
            We are sown a natural body but raised a spirit body.
            Yes, but I submit that the analogies in 1 Cor 15 show that Paul is still referring to a body. Besides, there can be no doubt that Jesus had a body - it was transformed, but it was still a body with legs and arms, etc.

            And note what Paul says in 1 Cor 15:

            For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him

            Christ was raised first and we know He had a body. We follow, and obviously we will have bodies. I really do not understand how this idea that we will be resurrected without being embodied can be made to work with that the Scriptures teach. People are listening to Greek Platonism and not the Scriptures, I humbly suggest.

            Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
            The sun no longer shines, the moon doesnt give its light, the stars fall from the sky....the whole concept of time is disintergrated.
            We need to understand a little history here. Jesus was born into a culture where such apocalyptic imagery was frequently used as imagery, as metaphor. Jesus is not speaking literally here, and we therefore cannot properly use this as an argument for the "timelessness" of the life to come. If you want support for my claim that there was a strong tradition of using such imagery in a metaphorical (non-literal) sense, I can try to provide it.

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            • #36
              While I do believe that there will indeed be "time" in our eternal home, I certainly also agree with those who have claimed that it will be "transformed" or "different" in some way from the time we now experience.

              I suggest that we need to remember the theme of "continuity and discontinuity" in respect to the life to come. I suggest that we will discern connections to this present world in the life to come, even though it will be perfected.

              Paul, I think, makes it clear that what we do now in this world for the kingdom is not in vain - the results of such work will, I suggest, will be manifested in the new world.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by drew View Post
                Yes, but I submit that the analogies in 1 Cor 15 show that Paul is still referring to a body. Besides, there can be no doubt that Jesus had a body - it was transformed, but it was still a body with legs and arms, etc.
                Or was that simply the way that God allowed the disciples -- physical beings -- to perceive Him? He's very gracious throughout the history of His dealings with men to "stoop" to meet them in their phsyicality. Thus the incarnation. But His intent is not to allow us to stay there, but to raise us to Him.
                Our destiny is to find our identity within the circumference of His identity--to express His nature, character, etc. ever revealing more of Him. ~ R&D Prinzing

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                • #38
                  Hi Keene
                  Well so far only the Lord Jesus has received immortality - and he was still recognisable, and Paul says the resurrection body will be made like his resurrection body.

                  Phil3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

                  1Co15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. 50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

                  The road to Emmaus mis-seeing of Jesus was because their eyes were "held" Luke says, not because he shape-shifted.

                  Originally posted by Keene View Post
                  I had a question come up that I didn't really have an answer for. When a person dies, do they keep their personality that they had in life in the afterlife? Also, how about their maturity? I have a friend who died when she was 22. If I were to die today (32) and saw her in the afterlife, would she still have the maturity of a 22 year old? So there's a chance that seeing her again we'd almost be more like strangers because I grew up, matured, gleaned experience, whereas she stopped all that at 22.Just wondering what people's thoughts were on this and if there is anything in scripture that tells us about this.
                  Well, their "names" are written in the Book of Life must be more than just names if Christ is going to raise the dead one day. It probably means that "name" captured the whole identity. In fact I'm stuck how to say "identity" in Hebrew without using the word "name"... I'm sure there is a word, but can't think of it.

                  Some people take Job 33 to have a dual fulfillment relative to resurrection

                  Job 33:22 His soul draws near the pit,
                  and his life to those who bring death.
                  23 If there be for him an angel,
                  a mediator, one of the thousand,
                  to declare to man what is right for him,
                  24 and he is merciful to him, and says,
                  ‘Deliver him from going down into the pit;
                  I have found a ransom;
                  25 let his flesh become fresh with youth;
                  let him return to the days of his youthful vigor’
                  ;

                  Which kind of makes sense - what Paul describes as an "incorruptible" body should be one in the physical prime - even if bearing, in Christ's case, Luke 24:39, marks of the nails.
                  God bless
                  Steven

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Semi-tortured View Post
                    He created the habitat special for us. We wrecked it. He's gonna fix it along with us so we don't wreck it again, cause we totally would, even with all Christians and Jesus there in our presence, I still think we would screw it up without Him renewing our souls.
                    Really good point, and I think scripturally supported. That is what the millenial reign is about... at the end of it we have final proof that man can't make it on his own... the devil is released, and despite living with saints past and present, in the presence of Jesus Himself, many still side with the devil. That's what I see the final battle as being about. Final proof to those who doubt that without cleaving to God we're doomed.
                    Please could everyone pray for Mieke and Charles.

                    My testimony http://bibleforums.org/forum/showthr...ight=testimony

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