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  • daughter
    replied
    Originally posted by Semi-tortured View Post
    He created the habitat special for us. We wrecked it. He's gonna fix it along with us so we don't wreck it again, cause we totally would, even with all Christians and Jesus there in our presence, I still think we would screw it up without Him renewing our souls.
    Really good point, and I think scripturally supported. That is what the millenial reign is about... at the end of it we have final proof that man can't make it on his own... the devil is released, and despite living with saints past and present, in the presence of Jesus Himself, many still side with the devil. That's what I see the final battle as being about. Final proof to those who doubt that without cleaving to God we're doomed.

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  • Steven3
    replied
    Hi Keene
    Well so far only the Lord Jesus has received immortality - and he was still recognisable, and Paul says the resurrection body will be made like his resurrection body.

    Phil3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

    1Co15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. 50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

    The road to Emmaus mis-seeing of Jesus was because their eyes were "held" Luke says, not because he shape-shifted.

    Originally posted by Keene View Post
    I had a question come up that I didn't really have an answer for. When a person dies, do they keep their personality that they had in life in the afterlife? Also, how about their maturity? I have a friend who died when she was 22. If I were to die today (32) and saw her in the afterlife, would she still have the maturity of a 22 year old? So there's a chance that seeing her again we'd almost be more like strangers because I grew up, matured, gleaned experience, whereas she stopped all that at 22.Just wondering what people's thoughts were on this and if there is anything in scripture that tells us about this.
    Well, their "names" are written in the Book of Life must be more than just names if Christ is going to raise the dead one day. It probably means that "name" captured the whole identity. In fact I'm stuck how to say "identity" in Hebrew without using the word "name"... I'm sure there is a word, but can't think of it.

    Some people take Job 33 to have a dual fulfillment relative to resurrection

    Job 33:22 His soul draws near the pit,
    and his life to those who bring death.
    23 If there be for him an angel,
    a mediator, one of the thousand,
    to declare to man what is right for him,
    24 and he is merciful to him, and says,
    ‘Deliver him from going down into the pit;
    I have found a ransom;
    25 let his flesh become fresh with youth;
    let him return to the days of his youthful vigor’
    ;

    Which kind of makes sense - what Paul describes as an "incorruptible" body should be one in the physical prime - even if bearing, in Christ's case, Luke 24:39, marks of the nails.
    God bless
    Steven

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  • Pleroo
    replied
    Originally posted by drew View Post
    Yes, but I submit that the analogies in 1 Cor 15 show that Paul is still referring to a body. Besides, there can be no doubt that Jesus had a body - it was transformed, but it was still a body with legs and arms, etc.
    Or was that simply the way that God allowed the disciples -- physical beings -- to perceive Him? He's very gracious throughout the history of His dealings with men to "stoop" to meet them in their phsyicality. Thus the incarnation. But His intent is not to allow us to stay there, but to raise us to Him.

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  • drew
    replied
    While I do believe that there will indeed be "time" in our eternal home, I certainly also agree with those who have claimed that it will be "transformed" or "different" in some way from the time we now experience.

    I suggest that we need to remember the theme of "continuity and discontinuity" in respect to the life to come. I suggest that we will discern connections to this present world in the life to come, even though it will be perfected.

    Paul, I think, makes it clear that what we do now in this world for the kingdom is not in vain - the results of such work will, I suggest, will be manifested in the new world.

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  • drew
    replied
    Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
    We are sown a natural body but raised a spirit body.
    Yes, but I submit that the analogies in 1 Cor 15 show that Paul is still referring to a body. Besides, there can be no doubt that Jesus had a body - it was transformed, but it was still a body with legs and arms, etc.

    And note what Paul says in 1 Cor 15:

    For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him

    Christ was raised first and we know He had a body. We follow, and obviously we will have bodies. I really do not understand how this idea that we will be resurrected without being embodied can be made to work with that the Scriptures teach. People are listening to Greek Platonism and not the Scriptures, I humbly suggest.

    Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
    The sun no longer shines, the moon doesnt give its light, the stars fall from the sky....the whole concept of time is disintergrated.
    We need to understand a little history here. Jesus was born into a culture where such apocalyptic imagery was frequently used as imagery, as metaphor. Jesus is not speaking literally here, and we therefore cannot properly use this as an argument for the "timelessness" of the life to come. If you want support for my claim that there was a strong tradition of using such imagery in a metaphorical (non-literal) sense, I can try to provide it.

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  • Pleroo
    replied
    Originally posted by drew View Post
    I submit that the following text from 1 cor 15 shows that Paul thinks our "spiritual" bodies are indeed bodies and not "disembodied" spirits:

    35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

    42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

    The important point is that Paul is using a series of analogies to describe the difference between the present bodies we have and the ones we will get when resurrected. The key thing is, that in all these analogies, distinctions are drawn between things that are nevertheless all still "material" or "physical". Men, animals, and fish are all different kinds of physical bodies. The sun, moon, and stars, are still material bodies despite the fact that they are different kinds or types of material bodies.

    If we take these analogies seriously, we see that Paul is not comparing a material body on the one hand to some kind of disembodied immaterial "thing" on the other - he is instead comparing bodies of one type to bodies of another type. I humbly suggest that people read 1 Corinthians 15 and as soon as they see the word "spiritual" as in "spiritual body", their "Plato goggles" kick in and they assume that Paul must be referring to some kind of disembodied state.

    The analogies suggest otherwise.

    Not to mention the argument that, as per Romans 8:18 and following plus stuff in Isaiah, it appears clear that God is going to redeem and transform creation, not do away with it. If this redeemed creation is not to be our home and if we are not to be physical bodies in it, what purpose does it serve?

    I don't think of living in the spiritual as a "disembodied" state. The Word says we are sown a natural body but raised with a spiritual body. Just like a seed for a plant is nothing at all like the plant which comes forth, I think that our spiritual bodies will be so completely different, and gloriously so, than our physical bodies that we can't begin to imagine. And the new heaven and earth would then be comparable in that they are a spiritual heaven and earth beyond our capability of understanding. So, I agree with you that we won't be disembodied but I don't know that we can have any concept, really, of just what a spiritual body will be.

    And if there is still "time" in the spiritual realm, I think it too will be transformed into something which we, as we are now, would find unrecognizable.

    As a side note, I'm not sure how much we can look to all the Revelation passages which are being quoted to support a timeless existance as well as a physical existance. Revelation is symbolic of spiritual truths, so I think we need to look beyond the literal.

    Of course, all of this is jmho and I won't be surprised if I'm proven wrong in the end.

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  • Semi-tortured
    replied
    Originally posted by drew View Post
    What? You mean some people think the KJV is a superior translation?


    There are a few with that opinion.

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  • drew
    replied
    Originally posted by Semi-tortured View Post
    Oh boy. You may have just opened a can of King James sized worms.
    What? You mean some people think the KJV is a superior translation?

    Leave a comment:


  • Semi-tortured
    replied
    Originally posted by drew View Post
    My point is that there is at least a possibility that the KJV translation is misleading since it implies something entirely different than the three other translations do.

    Oh boy. You may have just opened a can of King James sized worms.

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  • drew
    replied
    Originally posted by Soj_NZ View Post
    So your point is what?
    My point is that there is at least a possibility that the KJV translation is misleading since it implies something entirely different than the three other translations do.

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  • Semi-tortured
    replied
    I think where I might be confusing people is in what the definition of time is. When we are talking days, weeks, months, etc I do believe those will be gone. What I mean is I think there will still be a recognition of us doing something in the past while in heaven and us planning to do something in the future.

    I used the New Jerusalem as an example of that. Streets are something to be traveled upon. If I travel down a street, there is a "past" that I am leaving everytime I take a step and a "future" I move towards everytime I take a step. It may not be .5 seconds or what have you. I can see how our minds will be opened up to the concept of eternity and through that we no longer feel constricted by any form of time. Time becomes irrelevant, therefore it ceases to exist.

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  • Realist1981
    replied
    I'm surprised nobody brought up Revelation 21:23

    KJV


    9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.




    No Sun to shine it?



    Our day is measured by the Sun if there is no need for the sun then Time as we no it in New Jerusalem must not be a 24 hour period.

    I would also like to add that New Jerusalem comes out of Heaven down to Earth and we will reside there/here in some kind of physical body that is uncorruptable in a Revised Earth. If it were not so and if we merely float around as spirits on a cloud what was the point of John writing down all the physical stones, dimensions of the city, and the beauty of it if we weren't going to live there and what's the point of a ressurection

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  • Realist1981
    replied
    Originally posted by Semi-tortured View Post
    Yes. There shall be time no longer, but does that mean there will be no recognition of forward or backwards? I know our minds can't grasp that, and maybe that's why I believe there will be a form of time, just not the time we have. Deadlines will be gone. Aging and an end will be gone, but I do believe there will be some sort of way we are able to tell certain things. If I'm in heaven and I eat a piece of fruit and I chew it and enjoy it, will that be a memory to me? Will I be able to do things in heaven as soon as I feel like it and not have to wait? I walk through the gate of Jerusalem down the golden path. I obviously have to seperate the gate and the path with something or else there would be no point in having a city where we could come and go. We'd just be "around."

    My brain is sore.
    I got a big chuckle out of that my brain was sore too

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  • Soj
    replied
    For the no-more-time advocates, here are some more scriptures to consider about time as we know it coming to an end. The Bible talks about these "last times", and the "fulness of times" when God will gather in one all things in Christ and finally destroy death (which we read about in Rev 20:14 after the 1000 reign of Christ on earth), and after this God is said to be "all in all" which is an interesting expression that strongly suggests a completeness:

    1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

    1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

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  • jeffweeder
    replied
    Im actually not convinced there is no time either. He speaks of everlasting life. Adam and Eve would have had that type of life had they not sinned, and they had time.
    They were from the earth, and the earth was created a day at a time.
    And there was evening and morning ,1 day ..2,3,4,5,6,7.

    We are sown a natural body but raised a spirit body.

    We are raised a Spirit body at the end of days.

    Heaven and earth will pass awayyyy.......

    The sun no longer shines, the moon doesnt give its light, the stars fall from the sky....the whole concept of time is disintergrated.

    Jesus said I am with you always..Ill never leave you..nor forsake you.
    How can he do this for every believer if he is bound by time.?

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