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  • Enoch!

    Let's do some studying! I'll be using Young's Literal Translation (slightly edited into modern English... as in, I'll be changing stuff like "hath" to "has" and such).
    _____________________

    So where to start on the mysterious Enoch? Well, as Jesus is the One who has always been, we'll start with His words.

    Originally posted by John 3:13
    And no one has gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven.
    According to Jesus' own words, no one has gone to heaven. No one. Period. Considering Jesus was there, He knows what He is talking about and He was speaking plainly, so we cannot make any exceptions to what He said. In fact, nothing in the Bible ever says Enoch actually went to heaven when he disappeared.

    Originally posted by Genesis 5:21-24
    And Enoch liveth five and sixty years, and begot Methuselah. And Enoch walked habitually with God after his begetting Methuselah three hundred years, and begot sons and daughters. And all the days of Enoch are three hundred and sixty and five years. And Enoch walked habitually with God, and he was not, for God had taken him.
    Originally posted by Hebrews 11:5-6
    By faith Enoch was translated -- not to see death, and was not found, because God did translate him; for before his translation he had been testified to -- that he had pleased God well, and apart from faith it is impossible to please well, for it behoves him who is coming to God to believe that He is, and to those seeking Him He becomes a rewarder.
    The only two places in the Bible that actually mention Enoch's disappearance don't ever say he was taken to heaven, simply that he was "taken," or "translated." So, the Bible never says Enoch was taken to heaven. So what happened to him exactly? Well... "take" is a bit of a generic verb to work off of, but "translate" is pretty unique, so let's check the original Greek meaning of the word and it's various translations into English:

    Metatithemi
    to transpose (two things, one of which is put in place of the other)
    1. to transfer
    2. to change
    3. to transfer one's self or suffer one's self to be transferred
      1. to go or pass over
      2. to fall away or desert from one person or thing to another
    The same word is used in Acts to describe how after Jacob had already died his body was translated to another location. The word simply means to "transport" or "move." Even at the end of Deuteronomy we read how God took Moses' body. The word "translate" itself does not describe a unique process of being taken into heaven, and no wording in the passages surrounding Enoch's disappearance say he was taken to heaven. The most we can gather is that God "took" him and "translated" (or "transported" or "moved" or "carried over"), similar to how God took Moses body and moved it, or how Jacob's body was taken and moved.

    Let's go back to that section from Hebrews:
    Originally posted by Hebrews 11:4-13
    By faith Abel gave a better sacrifice to God...

    By faith Enoch was translated not to see death...

    By faith Noah prepared the ark...

    By faith Abraham obeyed God...

    By faith Sarah have a child...

    In faith died all these...
    The author of Hebrews lists a number of people who were had faith in God, including Enoch, then says they all died. The author does not include any sort of parenthetical statement that excludes Enoch from death, he does not make a sidenote, nothing. He simply includes Enoch in a list of faithful people who lived prior to Christ, then says that all of the people he had just listed died.

    Recap so far: According to Jesus, no one ever went up to heaven. According to the two passages that speak of Enoch's disappearance, the Bible never actually says Enoch went to heaven. According to the author of Hebrews, Enoch was "translated," that is, transported/moved, yet still died just as others had.

    Yet the author of Hebrews openly said that faithful Enoch was translated so as "not to see death," but later says the list of those who were faithful (Enoch included) did indeed die. Either the author of Hebrews contradicted himself, or there must be an explanation for why Enoch was translated so as "not to see death" yet apparently died anyway. Enoch died physically, but he did not die spiritually.

    The Genesis account of Enoch says he "walked with God" and Hebrews says he "pleased" God which can only be done by faith. Let's go back to our first source, Jesus.

    Originally posted by John 8:51
    verily, verily, I say to you, If any one may keep my word, death he may not see -- to the age.
    Originally posted by John 11:26
    and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die -- to the age;
    Obviously a lot of people who believed in Jesus have died, so the death Jesus is speaking about here is obviously spiritual death. Jesus tells us if we believe in Him, if we live in Him, if we keep His word, we will not see spiritual death. Similarly, the author of Hebrews is saying that Enoch was "translated" in order not to see spiritual death, not physical death.

    Even the Genesis account hints out (though not explicitly) that Enoch had died.

    So Enoch's life can be summarized as this: Enoch walked with God (Genesis 5:22) by faith just as Jesus said to (John 8:51, John 11:26), and after he had other children (Genesis 5:22), when he was 365 years old (Genesis 5:23) Enoch was "no more" (Genesis 5:24) meaning he died (Hebrews 11:13), because he was taken by God (Genesis 5:24), and he was "translated" (Hebrews 11:5) so that he would not suffer a spiritual death (John 8:51, John 11:26), but did indeed die a physical one (Hebrews 11:13), and while no one knows where exactly to he was taken/translated (Hebrews 11:5), but we know he could not possibly have been taken/translated to heaven (John 3:13).

    So who knows where Enoch was "translated" to, because the Bible says he could not be found. But we cannot say Enoch went to heaven without contradicting Jesus' own words, as well as the inspired words of the authors of the Gospels and the epistles.
    To This Day

  • #2
    I believe Enoch went to heaven. And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. I believe Enoch was so good that God took him to heaven without him having to die.

    By faith Enoch was
    translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
    'Translated', I believe it means taken to heaven without having to die.

    Markedward, in your opinion has any human beings ever gone to heaven? And do you believe human beings will ever go to heaven? Also what church do you go to?

    Comment


    • #3
      Markedward

      Maybe we must first ask ourselves where the souls all the people who had faith in the OT went when they died.

      It was not heaven, that I can tell you, otherwise there would not have been any use in Jesus being three days in the heart of the earth

      So, then we ask ourselves if God didn't take Enoch directly to paradise without him physically dying

      Remember Jesus only went up into heaven a while after He died on the cross and rose again, yet still He told the guy on the cross:

      And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
      Luke 23:43


      Also take into account:

      And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
      Matthew 27:52

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by markedward View Post
        Let's do some studying! I'll be using Young's Literal Translation (slightly edited into modern English... as in, I'll be changing stuff like "hath" to "has" and such).
        _____________________

        So where to start on the mysterious Enoch? Well, as Jesus is the One who has always been, we'll start with His words.

        According to Jesus' own words, no one has gone to heaven. No one. Period. Considering Jesus was there, He knows what He is talking about and He was speaking plainly, so we cannot make any exceptions to what He said. In fact, nothing in the Bible ever says Enoch actually went to heaven when he disappeared.
        . If no man had ascended up to
        heaven until Christ ascended, how could Enoch and Elijah be there? At the
        least, according to the plain statements of scripture, "no man hath
        ascended up to heaven" even though Elijah "went up by a whirlwind into
        heaven." Is this a contradiction? Not at all.

        The Bible does not say that Elijah ascended to heaven. It says that he
        was taken up. The word 'ascend' means to go up. It pictures someone or
        something that goes up of its own strength. The word 'ascend' comes from
        the Latin word for 'climb' and it literally means to climb up. We speak
        of someone ascending the stairs. The first biblical use of the word is in
        Genesis 28:12 where Jacob sees "a ladder set up on the earth, and the top
        of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and
        descending on it."

        John 3:13 does not teach that no one has ever seen or entered heaven. It
        teaches that no man ever climbed up into heaven by his own power. The
        only one who has ever ascended to heaven in His own strength is the One
        who originated in heaven and came down to earth before He ascended
        Revelation 3:3
        .....If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

        Comment


        • #5
          Remember Luke 16 and paradise? He may have gone to paradise not heaven.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by markedward View Post
            So who knows where Enoch was "translated" to, because the Bible says he could not be found.
            God knows where and thats good enough for me.
            If the Calvinistic Westminister Confession is true (that "God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass"), then God ordained my disbelief of Calvinism.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Jubal View Post
              I believe Enoch went to heaven. And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. I believe Enoch was so good that God took him to heaven without him having to die.
              All have sinned, and all fall short of the glory of God. No one is "so good" on their own. You say that Enoch did not die a physical death, yet this outright contradicts what was said in Hebrews 11.

              By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 'Translated', I believe it means taken to heaven without having to die.
              I already responded to this in my OP. You're interjecting a personal opinion of what "translated" means without actually looking up the word itself.

              Markedward, in your opinion has any human beings ever gone to heaven? And do you believe human beings will ever go to heaven? Also what church do you go to?
              I don't believe any man ever went to heaven, as according to the words of Christ, until after Christ had resurrected. Jesus outright stated that no man had ever gone up to heaven, so to say Enoch did because he was "so good" is a direct contradiction to half of the NT.

              Maybe we must first ask ourselves where the souls all the people who had faith in the OT went when they died
              I agree. I believe that all OT people went to Sheol/Hades, yet the "righteous" were able to find rest in the paradise "side," as Jesus describes it was divided by a chasm.

              Remember Luke 16 and paradise? He may have gone to paradise not heaven.
              More than likely this is the answer, as it is not unreasonable to believe.

              John 3:13 does not teach that no one has ever seen or entered heaven. It teaches that no man ever climbed up into heaven by his own power.
              That's eisegesis. First of all, "ascend" is an English word that is only part of a few English translations of the verse. You even said that "ascend" is from the Latin word for "climb." The Gospel was written in Greek, not Latin. "Ascend" just happened to be a close match in one English translation. I stated in my OP that I was using the Young's Literal Translation, and the verse came out to be "no man has gone up to heaven." Saying the translation in English must be "ascend" and must mean "climb of one's power power" means the translator would be trying to force the verse to fit a meaning that might not necessarily be right. The verse has absolutely no implications of "no one ever ascended to heaven of their own power." All that Jesus says is "no man has gone up to heaven." Period.
              To This Day

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Phil Fourie View Post
                Markedward

                Maybe we must first ask ourselves where the souls all the people who had faith in the OT went when they died.

                It was not heaven, that I can tell you, otherwise there would not have been any use in Jesus being three days in the heart of the earth

                So, then we ask ourselves if God didn't take Enoch directly to paradise without him physically dying

                Remember Jesus only went up into heaven a while after He died on the cross and rose again, yet still He told the guy on the cross:

                And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
                Luke 23:43


                Also take into account:

                And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
                Matthew 27:52
                I think you got it right here. He was translated to paradise which meant his physical, earthly body was no more. He didn't taste death like we do but more like those that rapture do.

                We must also remember the verse "it is appointed unto man once to die"... Do all men die once? Even those that are raptured? Yea, I think so in the same way Enoch died. But it is different. Hence the hebrew writer said "All these died in faith" but also said "enoch did not taste death"

                He was translated into paradise and his earthly shell was disgarded.
                Matt 9:13
                13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                NASU

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hebrews 11:4-13
                  By faith Abel gave a better sacrifice to God...

                  By faith Enoch was translated not to see death...

                  By faith Noah prepared the ark...

                  By faith Abraham obeyed God...

                  By faith Sarah have a child...

                  In faith died all these...
                  The whole context needs to be shown to prove that Paul did not say Enoch died

                  1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
                  2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
                  3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
                  4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
                  5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
                  6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
                  7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
                  8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
                  9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
                  10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
                  11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
                  12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
                  13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


                  True verses 7-12 are those who died as 13 says, but verse 6 is a break in the dialogue after speaking of Enoch, who is clearly spoken of as one who did not die. It is understood that "these all died" does not pertain to Enoch.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Illumined View Post
                    . If no man had ascended up to
                    heaven until Christ ascended, how could Enoch and Elijah be there? At the
                    least, according to the plain statements of scripture, "no man hath
                    ascended up to heaven" even though Elijah "went up by a whirlwind into
                    heaven." Is this a contradiction? Not at all.

                    The Bible does not say that Elijah ascended to heaven. It says that he
                    was taken up. The word 'ascend' means to go up. It pictures someone or
                    something that goes up of its own strength. The word 'ascend' comes from
                    the Latin word for 'climb' and it literally means to climb up. We speak
                    of someone ascending the stairs. The first biblical use of the word is in
                    Genesis 28:12 where Jacob sees "a ladder set up on the earth, and the top
                    of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and
                    descending on it."

                    John 3:13 does not teach that no one has ever seen or entered heaven. It
                    teaches that no man ever climbed up into heaven by his own power. The
                    only one who has ever ascended to heaven in His own strength is the One
                    who originated in heaven and came down to earth before He ascended
                    To take your statement a little further, where was Moses and Elijah coming from when they met Jesus on the mountain in Matt 17 ??
                    ὁ ̓Ιησοῦς κύριος

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Alaska View Post
                      True verses 7-12 are those who died as 13 says, but verse 6 is a break in the dialogue after speaking of Enoch, who is clearly spoken of as one who did not die. It is understood that "these all died" does not pertain to Enoch.
                      Then according to the way you're reading the word "die" as always referring to physical death, then...
                      Originally posted by John 11:26
                      and everyone who is living and believing in me shall not die -- to the age;
                      ... do you read this to mean anyone who believes in Jesus will not die physically? Because Jesus does not explicitly say people who believe in Him will not die spiritual death. Yet from reading the entire Bible in tandem we can come to the conclusion He was not speaking of physical death but spiritual death. Another thing Jesus said was that God was the God of the living, of Abraham and others. Jesus did not explicitly say they were spiritually alive, yet when we take the entire Bible in tandem we know He was saying they were spiritually alive, not physically alive. To say Enoch A) was "good enough" so that he would B) go to heaven before Christ's atonement requires such an interpretation to ignore other key points of scripture. If you ignore those key points, then the interpretation of Enoch's disappearance works.

                      So if someone insists that Enoch did not die a physical death, that he was "so good" that God would take him to heaven, I ask in return: how does such an interpretation work with other parts of the Bible that say no one has gone up to heaven, all men have sinned and all men fall short of the glory of God, and the author of Hebrews said all of these people died. The author of Hebrews had dozens of people from Genesis to use who died in faith, why would he include Enoch in his short list of people who died if Enoch hadn't died, then the author says all of these people died? The passage in question in the epistle to the Hebrews is giving examples of people who physically died despite that they had faith in God.

                      (And just a sidenote, the author of Hebrews is not proven to be Paul, so it's mere speculation to say it's him. Let's just stick with "the author.")
                      To This Day

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jollyrogers View Post
                        To take your statement a little further, where was Moses and Elijah coming from when they met Jesus on the mountain in Matt 17 ??
                        Where do the Gospels say Moses and Elijah came from heaven?

                        How was it Samuel's spirit was able to be called back from Sheol in order to prophesy Saul's death upon him? If such a thing happened with Samuel to talk to Saul, it is easily possible that the same thing happened with Moses and Elijah to talk to Jesus.
                        To This Day

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                          I think you got it right here. He was translated to paradise which meant his physical, earthly body was no more. He didn't taste death like we do but more like those that rapture do.

                          We must also remember the verse "it is appointed unto man once to die"... Do all men die once? Even those that are raptured? Yea, I think so in the same way Enoch died. But it is different. Hence the hebrew writer said "All these died in faith" but also said "enoch did not taste death"

                          He was translated into paradise and his earthly shell was disgarded.
                          Ah, we think very much alike. I believe (same as rupture) that our physical body will stop existing (as Enoch's did) and we will receive our spiritual body. How this works, we do not know, but the Bible does say it will happen to those who will be involved in the rupture, so I'm sure the same thing could have happened to Enoch, diffs is just, he probably went to paradise or to be with Abraham or whatever you want to call it. No oops, Enoch was before Abraham. So then did Abraham go to where Enoch was?

                          Who cares, important thing is we will all be in the same place thanks to our Savior.

                          God bless
                          Phil

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                            He was translated into paradise and his earthly shell was disgarded.
                            I don't believe he left a body behind. The scripture said he was not found. I believe God took him to heaven alive, body and soul.
                            Last edited by Jubal; Nov 27th 2007, 05:31 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jubal View Post
                              I don't believe he left a body behind. The scripture said he was not found. I think God took him to heaven alive, body and soul.
                              So if you believe Enoch was taken to God, explain a few things:

                              1 - Why was Enoch so special that God took him to heaven, without contradicting the statement that no one is without sin, and that all fall short of God's glory?
                              2 - How was Enoch able to circumvent what Jesus at a later time said, that no one had gone up to heaven, without contradicting it?
                              To This Day

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