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Is Israel above rebuke?

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  • Is Israel above rebuke?

    I have been really rather surprised at the recent thread on isreali terrorism. I seems that critism of Isreal is not an acceptable position to take. Not merely a minority view but an unacceptable one?

    Are the actions of Isreal in the last 50 years above rebuke?

    Is critism of Israel "unchristian" or "unbiblical"

  • #2
    Nope. But when we rebuke or judge, let us do so in fact instead of in blanket condemnation.

    For instance, let us say "that act was wrong".

    Also, keep in mind, that many that condemn Israel, loathe to condemn the other side. Often what you will see in these threads is a defense of Israel because they seem to be classified as worse than the other guy. For me, I think the other guy is far worse in his actions.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    • #3
      No, I rebuke Israel all the time in various discussions.

      Is Israel as bad as the Nazis? Does Israel carry out terrorist attacks? Are they the worst human rights offender in the world? Are they committing genocide? Are they an apartheid state? No. Do people claim that they are? Yes.

      Comment


      • #4
        The best part is when someone says that "Any criticism of Israel is called antisemitism" and then go on to compare Israel to the Nazis. No, any criticism of Israel is not antisemitism, but comparing them to the most evil empires that ever existed is.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Fenris View Post
          The best part is when someone says that "Any criticism of Israel is called antisemitism" and then go on to compare Israel to the Nazis. No, any criticism of Israel is not antisemitism, but comparing them to the most evil empires that ever existed is.
          Nonsense.

          It might be silly or ridiculous to compare a nation to Nazi Germany.

          It might even be totally wrong.

          But to say in the case of Israel that it is "antisemitism" is ridiculous.

          It is simply an ad hominem.

          I am totally in favor of a reasoned debate where it is demonstrated that the actions of Israel nowhere compare to those of Nazi Germany.

          That is fine, that is discussion.

          But to call it "antisemitism" without any appeal to the facts, and without any discussion.

          In fact to end it before any discussion happens.

          To end it by calling the opponents racists.

          That is just intellectual cowardice and nothing else.

          I have to ask:

          Is it not possible that Israel's actions are in fact comparable to those of the Nazis, and that it is precisely for this reason that Israel's defenders will not actually engage in such a discussion, but prefer to smear the opposition with the name "racist"?

          The fact that the main defense of Israeli actions is to smear the opposition invites one to suppose that many of Israel's actions are (in fact) indefensible.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
            Nope. But when we rebuke or judge, let us do so in fact instead of in blanket condemnation.
            I think people would be inclined to do that if it wasn't for the fact that the Palestinians are constantly smeared with blanket condemnations by the pro-Israeli side.

            Also, keep in mind, that many that condemn Israel, loathe to condemn the other side. Often what you will see in these threads is a defense of Israel because they seem to be classified as worse than the other guy. For me, I think the other guy is far worse in his actions.
            Well Israel is the aggressor, and (I suspect) if many of the pro-Israeli types found themselves in the boots of the Palestinians in their own country (with a foreign power occupying, and doing the things the Israelis do), they would find themselves advocating just the sorts of things the Palestinians are.

            It would be good of people could try to imagine themselves in both the boots of the Israelis and the Palestinians.

            But let me stress once again (or for the first time in this thread)

            The fact of the matter is that many many many more Palestinian civilians have been killed by Israelis than Israeli civilians have by Palestinians.

            If we measured things purely by body-count alone, we'd find that the Palestinians appear to be the wronged party.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by punk View Post
              Nonsense.

              It might be silly or ridiculous to compare a nation to Nazi Germany.

              It might even be totally wrong.

              But to say in the case of Israel that it is "antisemitism" is ridiculous.
              Does antisemitism exist, in your opinion?



              Is it not possible that Israel's actions are in fact comparable to those of the Nazis, and that it is precisely for this reason that Israel's defenders will not actually engage in such a discussion, but prefer to smear the opposition with the name "racist"?
              Well, if you're trying to make a connection, then make it. Israel's actions are comparable to the Nazis...how?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by punk View Post
                The fact that the main defense of Israeli actions is to smear the opposition invites one to suppose that many of Israel's actions are (in fact) indefensible.
                Using your own first word, nonsense!

                People do the comparison because they know it will inflame emotions and bring out the said accusations. If reasoned debate was wanted, the broad comparison would be avoided even if limited comparison is used.
                Matt 9:13
                13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                NASU

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by A Seeker View Post
                  I have been really rather surprised at the recent thread on isreali terrorism. I seems that critism of Isreal is not an acceptable position to take. Not merely a minority view but an unacceptable one?

                  Are the actions of Isreal in the last 50 years above rebuke?

                  Is critism of Israel "unchristian" or "unbiblical"
                  Christians should criticize all groups for the wrongs they do.

                  If I fail to criticize the Palestinians in a venue such as this, it is only because it is nothing but preaching to the choir (but note, that even my criticism of Palestine comes out so much weaker than the demonizing by the choir that my criticisms can be misconstrued as blanket support).

                  We, as Christians, are commanded to love our neighbor, and I interpret that as a commandment to love the Israelis and the Palestinians equally, and hence to criticize both as appropriate.

                  I'll also note that many who criticize Israel, merely criticize them for not being fascist enough in their treatment of the Palestinians.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by punk View Post
                    But let me stress once again (or for the first time in this thread)

                    The fact of the matter is that many many many more Palestinian civilians have been killed by Israelis than Israeli civilians have by Palestinians.

                    If we measured things purely by body-count alone, we'd find that the Palestinians appear to be the wronged party.
                    In world war 2 Germany lost 1.8 million civilians. The US lost 1700 civilians. Germany would therefore appear to be the wronged party.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by punk View Post
                      I think people would be inclined to do that if it wasn't for the fact that the Palestinians are constantly smeared with blanket condemnations by the pro-Israeli side.
                      Right. It's always Israel's fault. That's the problem here Punk. There are errors on both sides. Personally, I think the greater error is on the Palestinians and their Arab neighbors. However, I do not support moving Palestinian settlements.



                      Well Israel is the aggressor, and (I suspect) if many of the pro-Israeli types found themselves in the boots of the Palestinians in their own country (with a foreign power occupying, and doing the things the Israelis do), they would find themselves advocating just the sorts of things the Palestinians are.
                      Palestine doesn't exist any more. Israel is the country that is now there. Palestinians are now the foreigners and Israel the country.

                      It would be good of people could try to imagine themselves in both the boots of the Israelis and the Palestinians.
                      Agreed.

                      The fact of the matter is that many many many more Palestinian civilians have been killed by Israelis than Israeli civilians have by Palestinians.

                      If we measured things purely by body-count alone, we'd find that the Palestinians appear to be the wronged party.

                      Agreed. But that isn't the measuring stick IMHO.
                      Matt 9:13
                      13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                      NASU

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by A Seeker View Post
                        Are the actions of Isreal in the last 50 years above rebuke?

                        Is critism of Israel "unchristian" or "unbiblical"
                        Nope, and nope.

                        But this whole discussion needs to take place in full view of the larger picture. When the stated goal of several nations is the complete and total annihilation of Israel - and they are putting actions behind their goal - it's kind of hard to criticize Israel for fighting.


                        I see it kind of like this: I have absolutely no animosity toward you whatever. I don't know any reason I would hold any. In addition, I'm really a rather peaceful person. However, if you said you were going to kill my daughter, and it was obvious that you were doing everything to fulfill that threat, you'd better watch out. I will never sit idly by and just allow that to happen.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by A Seeker View Post
                          I have been really rather surprised at the recent thread on isreali terrorism. I seems that critism of Isreal is not an acceptable position to take. Not merely a minority view but an unacceptable one?
                          You notice that too. Thought maybe it was just me.

                          Are the actions of Isreal in the last 50 years above rebuke?
                          No, as no political structure is.
                          Is critism of Israel "unchristian" or "unbiblical"
                          As Christians who read the bible, it would seem ridiculous not to critique the examples given. That is if one wishes to get to the truth of the matter.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Not surprisingly to me, but maybe to you, EVERYONE has said that Israel IS NOT above rebuke! Israel is not always right and Israel is not perfect. No one, even in the other thread has said that they were. It surprises me that the pro-palestinian side of this discussion feels that Israel is always wrong.
                            II Timothy 2:15
                            Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
                            Read My Testimony sigpic Visit Our Website

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Studyin'2Show View Post
                              Not surprisingly to me, but maybe to you, EVERYONE has said that Israel IS NOT above rebuke! Israel is not always right and Israel is not perfect. No one, even in the other thread has said that they were. It surprises me that the pro-palestinian side of this discussion feels that Israel is always wrong.
                              I'm sure that last bit is related to the feeling that the pro-Israeli side seems never to admit that the Palestinians might have some legitimate grievances.

                              Hey, I'll start a thread, and we'll see if anyone thinks they do!

                              But while we're on the topic, I'm very curious:

                              Pro-Israel types, what exactly are some real things Israel has done that are worthy of rebuke in your opinion?

                              I'm curious what rises to the level rebuke in this regard.

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