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  • Preterism

    Some people claim to a preterist view of the world (i.e., the things in Revelation have already happened). What do you say to this?

  • #2
    Originally posted by coldfire136 View Post
    Some people claim to a preterist view of the world (i.e., the things in Revelation have already happened). What do you say to this?
    If the things in Revelation have already happened, then all the questions and debates an all the forums and posts are pointless since Jesus would have already come, and there is a new Jerusalem, the first resurrection and the second has passed. We could go on, and on, but the proof is according to what is written all the things in revelation have not yet happened.

    Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha And Omega, the beginning And the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

    Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful And true: And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.


    Firstfruits

    Comment


    • #3
      Just a reminder at the outset of this thread:
      The teaching of 'Full Preterism' is not allowed to be advanced in ETC.

      (also called Hyper-Preterism, and Hymenean-Preterism).

      Summarily, this is the view that all prophecy was concluded by 70 AD, and that the 2nd Coming occurred in 70 AD, and all 'end time events' were fulfilled by 70 AD.
      Choose your words carefully.................

      Comment


      • #4
        I believe so because the apostles seemed to believe so. If people of this board consider it crazy to take the words of the apostles and not change "soon" to "distant future" or change "us" into "them" or change "now" into "later," then by God, call me a crazy man, but I stand firm with my belief in the apostles' words.

        Matthew 3:2 Repent of your sins and turn to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near.
        Matthew 4:17 From then on Jesus began to preach, 'Repent of your sins and turn to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near.'
        Matthew 16:28 “And I tell you the truth, some standing here right now will not die before they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom.”
        Matthew 24:14 And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations will hear it; and then the end will come.
        (This “preached to the whole world” statement was confirmed in the first century, in Acts 24:5, Romans 1:8, Romans 10:18, and Colossians 1:6,23. "And then the end will come.")
        Mark 1:15 'The time promised by God has come at last!' he announced. 'The Kingdom of God is near! Repent of your sins and believe the Good News!'
        Luke 10:9 'Heal the sick, and tell them, "The Kingdom of God is near you now."
        Luke 10:11 'We wipe even the dust of your town from our feet to show that we have abandoned you to your fate. And know this—the Kingdom of God is near!'
        Luke 17:21 You won’t be able to say, ‘Here it is!’ or ‘It’s over there!’ For the Kingdom of God is within your grasp.
        Matthew 10:23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
        John 21:23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"
        Romans 13:11-12 And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
        Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.
        1 Corinthians 7:29-31 What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.
        1 Corinthians 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.
        Philippians 4:5 Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near.
        Hebrew 1:1-2 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
        Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
        Hebrews 9:26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
        Hebrews 10:25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
        Hebrews 10:37 For in just a very little while, “He who is coming will come and will not delay.”
        James 5:3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days.
        James 5:8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near.
        1 Peter 1:20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
        1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things isnear. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray.
        1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
        1 John 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
        Jude 1:17-19 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
        Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
        Revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
        Revelation 1:19 Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.
        Revelation 3:11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.
        Revelation 22:6 The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."
        Revelation 22:7 "Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book."
        Revelation 22:10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.”
        Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.”
        Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
        To This Day

        Comment


        • #5
          I agree with markedward.
          And based on the Apostles creed, preterism is orthodox.
          The other 3 creeds which came after the first century weren't as concerned or focused with eschatology, so the "votes" just prolonged the beliefs of the original creed.
          As a non-denominational Christian who came to the church a little later than some, I have learned that it is those creeds which is the basis of tradition, division & denominations in Christianity. This is the opposite of what Jesus taught.
          Teachers & Christian students are in a better position today to understand Sola Scripture or Tota Scripture, & to learn from the reformers like Luther & Calvin, who understood some things better than any generation before them.

          Preterists certainly believe the NT taught a future coming, resurrection, judgment and end. We are not denying the events themselves, just that their fulfillment is still future. The wording of the creeds could be amended to indicate that they are merely reflecting the NT’s original futurist perspective, but not necessarily imposing a futurist approach upon anyone after the first century.

          I hope I chose my words carefully enough.
          Have a good day.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by markedward View Post
            I believe so because the apostles seemed to believe so. If people of this board consider it crazy to take the words of the apostles and not change "soon" to "distant future" or change "us" into "them" or change "now" into "later," then by God, call me a crazy man, but I stand firm with my belief in the apostles' words.

            Matthew 3:2 Repent of your sins and turn to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near.
            Matthew 4:17 From then on Jesus began to preach, 'Repent of your sins and turn to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near.'
            Matthew 16:28 “And I tell you the truth, some standing here right now will not die before they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom.”
            Matthew 24:14 And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations will hear it; and then the end will come.
            (This “preached to the whole world” statement was confirmed in the first century, in Acts 24:5, Romans 1:8, Romans 10:18, and Colossians 1:6,23. "And then the end will come.")
            Mark 1:15 'The time promised by God has come at last!' he announced. 'The Kingdom of God is near! Repent of your sins and believe the Good News!'
            Luke 10:9 'Heal the sick, and tell them, "The Kingdom of God is near you now."
            Luke 10:11 'We wipe even the dust of your town from our feet to show that we have abandoned you to your fate. And know this—the Kingdom of God is near!'
            Luke 17:21 You won’t be able to say, ‘Here it is!’ or ‘It’s over there!’ For the Kingdom of God is within your grasp.
            Matthew 10:23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
            John 21:23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"
            Romans 13:11-12 And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
            Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.
            1 Corinthians 7:29-31 What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.
            1 Corinthians 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.
            Philippians 4:5 Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near.
            Hebrew 1:1-2 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
            Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
            Hebrews 9:26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
            Hebrews 10:25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
            Hebrews 10:37 For in just a very little while, “He who is coming will come and will not delay.”
            James 5:3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days.
            James 5:8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near.
            1 Peter 1:20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
            1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things isnear. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray.
            1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
            1 John 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
            Jude 1:17-19 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
            Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
            Revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
            Revelation 1:19 Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.
            Revelation 3:11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.
            Revelation 22:6 The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."
            Revelation 22:7 "Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book."
            Revelation 22:10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.”
            Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.”
            Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

            If the thing in Revelation have already happened/fulfilled then what I am asking is already past, so please according to scripture can you answer the following?

            When did the 144000 get sealed?
            What happened after the beast's reign?
            What was the mark of the beast?
            What happened to those that did not take the mark?
            What happened to those that did take the mark?
            When was the first resurrection?
            When was the second resurrection?

            Please note the questions are in past tense since All that is in Revelation is complete, so as yo can imagine there are more that will come after you have answered these.

            Thanks

            Firstfruits

            Comment


            • #7
              Just a note of clarification, most orthodox preterists believe Revelation has been fulfilled up to 20:5. They still believe the rest of Revelation awaits future fulfillment.
              The Matthew Never Knew
              The Knew Kingdom

              Comment


              • #8
                A further note of clarification. This thread can now be found in Controversial Forum.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by matthew94 View Post
                  Just a note of clarification, most orthodox preterists believe Revelation has been fulfilled up to 20:5. They still believe the rest of Revelation awaits future fulfillment.
                  matthew94, not from what I've read so far. And the from some excerpts from multiple books I've just ordered.
                  The description you gave still falls into the partial-preterist camp.
                  From the preterists I have read on, we are in the New Jerusalem now spiritually. Do you mean the part about the N.J. pertaining spiritually to those in heaven only. This would be those who died or were raptured(both OT saints & 1st century Christians).??? Full preterists believe the N.J. applies to Christ's/ God's kingdom now also. Surely the "dwelling of God is with men"(REV.21:3) after the establishment of the New Covenant. Jesus has handed up the kingdom He established in His first advent, but of course He still reigns in us seated at the right hand of God.
                  I don't believe you are correct about preterists. The judgment(sheep & goats) wheat & tares) already took place at Christ's return in 70AD. The resurrection, one resurrection- already took place- which was immediately before the judgment.
                  This is for all mankind. Believers today when they die they go to heaven with glorified bodies. The wicked, since the judgment has already been established, go directly to the lake of fire.
                  Most preterists, including myself do not believe in another "group" resurrection at the end of mankind. It's all individual at the last day of a person's life. Once again the conditions for heaven was set.
                  The rest of Rev., is also symbolic. But Jesus came to destroy death & hades, which He did. He also came to destroy the works of the devil.
                  Does that mean that the fallen angel is in the lake of fire?
                  Yes! But sin still exists. Sin exists, but has no REIGN over believers. Evil lives on in the hearts of men.

                  I don't mean to say "you are wrong!" matthew94, you know I like you, but I'm just not getting the same impression as you from what I've been reading!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Allegra View Post
                    matthew94, not from what I've read so far. And the from some excerpts from multiple books I've just ordered.
                    The description you gave still falls into the partial-preterist camp.
                    From the preterists I have read on, we are in the New Jerusalem now spiritually. Do you mean the part about the N.J. pertaining spiritually to those in heaven only. This would be those who died or were raptured(both OT saints & 1st century Christians).??? Full preterists believe the N.J. applies to Christ's/ God's kingdom now also. Surely the "dwelling of God is with men"(REV.21:3) after the establishment of the New Covenant. Jesus has handed up the kingdom He established in His first advent, but of course He still reigns in us seated at the right hand of God.
                    I don't believe you are correct about preterists. The judgment(sheep & goats) wheat & tares) already took place at Christ's return in 70AD. The resurrection, one resurrection- already took place- which was immediately before the judgment.
                    This is for all mankind. Believers today when they die they go to heaven with glorified bodies. The wicked, since the judgment has already been established, go directly to the lake of fire.
                    Most preterists, including myself do not believe in another "group" resurrection at the end of mankind. It's all individual at the last day of a person's life. Once again the conditions for heaven was set.
                    The rest of Rev., is also symbolic. But Jesus came to destroy death & hades, which He did. He also came to destroy the works of the devil.
                    Does that mean that the fallen angel is in the lake of fire?
                    Yes! But sin still exists. Sin exists, but has no REIGN over believers. Evil lives on in the hearts of men.

                    I don't mean to say "you are wrong!" matthew94, you know I like you, but I'm just not getting the same impression as you from what I've been reading!
                    Please note the usage of the words 'orthodox' behind his use of 'preterist.' Matthew was pointing out a distinction within the camps of preterism...
                    One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father over us all.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
                      If the thing in Revelation have already happened/fulfilled then what I am asking is already past, so please according to scripture can you answer the following?
                      I'll explain myself fully if a Mod gives me permission to, but for the time being, I'll say this:


                      Daniel prophesied that once the Kingdom of God was established that it would not end.

                      Jesus prophesied that the Kingdom of God was near; He was constantly telling people that the Kingdom was close by, and even went so far to say that the Kingdom was not, I repeat, Jesus said that the Kingdom was not visible, but that it was within people. Jesus even stated that people standing right in front of Him would not die before He returned in His Kingdom, before He "came on the clouds."

                      Luke (the author of Acts), Peter, Paul, John, Jude, and the author of Hebrews all believed that "the end" was close to their time. They stated things such as "Satan will soon be crushed," "The old covenant is soon to pass away," "Now is the time for judgment," "We are in the last hour," "These are the last days," "The Lord is returning soon," "On us the fulfillment of the ages has come."

                      Personally, I can't even comprehend how people can intentionally twist "us" into "them" or "soon" into "the distant future" or "now" into "later" or "we" into "they" or "these" into "those" and so on. Look at some of the verses I quoted above:

                      Originally posted by 1 John 2:18
                      Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
                      Some would have you believe that the phrase "this is the last hour" is referring to our post-2000 AD time. How is that possible? Since when did "this is the last hour" suddenly mean "the last hour is 2000 years in our future"?


                      I am being very blunt: the New Testament is filled with passages like this, and there are people in our current day who intentionally ignore or even change the meanings of the passages to fit their Futurist views. Jesus and His apostles were not prophesying about our modern age! They were speaking plainly and specificly about their own time period! How can such a Futurist view reconcile with what Jesus said? It's considered borderline-heretical on these boards to be a full Preterist; why? Jesus Christ our God said that people standing right in front of Him would not die before He returned on the clouds! I'm a heretic to believe the words of our Savior?

                      Now, if you think I'm coming off harshly, I apologize for that, but I get very riled up when people tell me I'm speaking lies, when my beliefs come directly from the words of my Messiah.

                      I couldn't care less when the exact timing of something was, so long as I hold fast to my beliefs in Jesus' words that "this generation will not pass before all these things happen," that "some standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Jesus placed "the end" within the lifespan of His generation, of people standing directly in front of Him. I believe His words. I believe "soon" actually means "soon" and "we" means "we" and "us" means "us" and "now" means "now."

                      Some would have you believe "well, God is just speaking in His terms, not ours." No. Our God is not a God of confusion; He is going to speak to us in a way we can understand. He is going to use words we know, and if He says "soon" and every other instance of the word suggests "soon" and if He says "now" and every other instance of that word suggests "now," then I'm going to take the word at its plain meaning, not intentionally change the definition to make it fit our modern day.

                      So, Daniel prophesied one eternal kingdom with one beginning. Jesus prophesied that that kingdom was near. Jesus also prophesied that "the end" was coming within the lifetimes of His contemporaries. His apostles declared that they were a part of the kingdom. His apostles prophesied that "the end" was close upon them. Everything about what they said would point to a major eschatological event in their time period. Jesus prophesied, "the end" was accompanied by the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. And "soon" after His apostles prophesied the "soon" to come "end," the temple was destroyed. All of the events surrounding that are speculation, but what Jesus prophesied would happen, happened, and I believe His words, and I believe His apostles' words. The specifics are debatable, but I know for sure His words and His apostles' words happened in the timeframe they set; the first century.

                      [/endrant]
                      To This Day

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Steve M View Post
                        Please note the usage of the words 'orthodox' behind his use of 'preterist.' Matthew was pointing out a distinction within the camps of preterism...
                        Noted Steve M. I understood the adjective. And who's the judge of what is Orthodox? Man's prejudices? The Pope? lol.
                        I stick by my claim that full preterism is Orthodox. The main points of preterism are: The Second coming(70AD) the First Resurrection(Apostles & 1st century Christians(70AD) Daniel's "people"-Judgment throne-70AD) The New Heavens & New Earth-70 AD & beyond...............
                        End of the Old earth. (symbolically of course)

                        Love & Peace.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi MarkEdward,
                          There is much you say that I agree with. But if we keep in mind that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending - then we ought to know that it ain't all over yet! I agree there was an end for Israel - an end that brought them (& us) salvation. But we who remain have yet to see the fullness of that salvation, so there remains a rest for us too.

                          What I see in the NT era is that their salvation was not yet sealed, which is why we read about their having to stand fast, keep sanctifiied, etc. In other words it was still a time of NOSAS - only those who abided in the Lord would be included in the marriage about to take place. There was a line being drawn in Israel and in Jerusalem in particular which is not unlike the line we see previously in the OT (in the BC). It was therefore imperative that they remain believing until their salvation was secured.

                          So what I see that was accomplished in the generation that witnessed Jesus' arrival, is that we now have assurance that when we are absent from this body we will be present with the Lord and will never be unclothed or left sleeping as was the case before. But abiding is still required in this life until death us do part - or the Lord comes to put an end to it all.
                          Robin

                          Truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established that, unless one loves the truth, he cannot know it. - Blaise Pascal
                          And Jesus saith unto him [Thomas], I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6
                          Discernment is not needed in things that differ, but in things that appear to be the same. - Miles Sanford
                          Those who compromise with Christ’s enemies may be reckoned with them. - C.H. Spurgeon

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by markedward View Post
                            I'll explain myself fully if a Mod gives me permission to, but for the time being, I'll say this:

                            Daniel prophesied that once the Kingdom of God was established that it would not end.

                            Jesus prophesied that the Kingdom of God was near; He was constantly telling people that the Kingdom was close by, and even went so far to say that the Kingdom was not, I repeat, Jesus said that the Kingdom was not visible, but that it was within people. Jesus even stated that people standing right in front of Him would not die before He returned in His Kingdom, before He "came on the clouds."

                            Luke (the author of Acts), Peter, Paul, John, Jude, and the author of Hebrews all believed that "the end" was close to their time. They stated things such as "Satan will soon be crushed," "The old covenant is soon to pass away," "Now is the time for judgment," "We are in the last hour," "These are the last days," "The Lord is returning soon," "On us the fulfillment of the ages has come."

                            Personally, I can't even comprehend how people can intentionally twist "us" into "them" or "soon" into "the distant future" or "now" into "later" or "we" into "they" or "these" into "those" and so on. Look at some of the verses I quoted above:

                            Some would have you believe that the phrase "this is the last hour" is referring to our post-2000 AD time. How is that possible? Since when did "this is the last hour" suddenly mean "the last hour is 2000 years in our future"?

                            I am being very blunt: the New Testament is filled with passages like this, and there are people in our current day who intentionally ignore or even change the meanings of the passages to fit their Futurist views. Jesus and His apostles were not prophesying about our modern age! They were speaking plainly and specificly about their own time period! How can such a Futurist view reconcile with what Jesus said? It's considered borderline-heretical on these boards to be a full Preterist; why? Jesus Christ our God said that people standing right in front of Him would not die before He returned on the clouds! I'm a heretic to believe the words of our Savior?

                            Now, if you think I'm coming off harshly, I apologize for that, but I get very riled up when people tell me I'm speaking lies, when my beliefs come directly from the words of my Messiah.

                            I couldn't care less when the exact timing of something was, so long as I hold fast to my beliefs in Jesus' words that "this generation will not pass before all these things happen," that "some standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Jesus placed "the end" within the lifespan of His generation, of people standing directly in front of Him. I believe His words. I believe "soon" actually means "soon" and "we" means "we" and "us" means "us" and "now" means "now."

                            Some would have you believe "well, God is just speaking in His terms, not ours." No. Our God is not a God of confusion; He is going to speak to us in a way we can understand. He is going to use words we know, and if He says "soon" and every other instance of the word suggests "soon" and if He says "now" and every other instance of that word suggests "now," then I'm going to take the word at its plain meaning, not intentionally change the definition to make it fit our modern day.

                            So, Daniel prophesied one eternal kingdom with one beginning. Jesus prophesied that that kingdom was near. Jesus also prophesied that "the end" was coming within the lifetimes of His contemporaries. His apostles declared that they were a part of the kingdom. His apostles prophesied that "the end" was close upon them. Everything about what they said would point to a major eschatological event in their time period. Jesus prophesied, "the end" was accompanied by the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. And "soon" after His apostles prophesied the "soon" to come "end," the temple was destroyed. All of the events surrounding that are speculation, but what Jesus prophesied would happen, happened, and I believe His words, and I believe His apostles' words. The specifics are debatable, but I know for sure His words and His apostles' words happened in the timeframe they set; the first century.

                            [/endrant]
                            Thanks for your reply, however, can you answer the questions I have asked, since they have already been fulfilled?

                            When did the 144000 get sealed?
                            What happened after the beast's reign?
                            What was the mark of the beast?
                            What happened to those that did not take the mark?
                            What happened to those that did take the mark?
                            When was the first resurrection?
                            When was the second resurrection?

                            Thanks

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                            • #15
                              If the things in Revelation have already happened...


                              Then we are the lost, and we are all in hell - and damned for all time.

                              Forevermore. Until the end of ultimate 'time'.

                              So then, what is the point in discussing anything (or even hoping) to any further extent?

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