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Some thoughts on Jerusalem NOTE BY PP: This is between Fenris and ProjectPeter

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  • Some thoughts on Jerusalem NOTE BY PP: This is between Fenris and ProjectPeter

    This rabbi was my high school principal. It was a privilege.
    Jerusalem, earthly and heavenly

    BEREL WEIN , THE JERUSALEM POST Dec. 5, 2007

    A number of years ago I visited San Diego, California to deliver a lecture at a local synagogue. On the next day, I prevailed upon my friend and colleague, the rabbi of the synagogue to accompany me across the US-Mexican border to visit Tijuana. Ignoring the advice of the rabbi that the visit was not worth the time I insisted in doing so anyway. The rabbi was right. Tijuana was vastly disappointing. But on the way back, crossing into the United States from Mexico an incident occurred that has remained stamped in my memory ever since.


    The burly Mexican American customs officer at the border examined my passport and paused. He then asked me in awe and wonderment: "Do you really live in Jerusalem?"


    When I answered affirmatively he looked at me and said: "How blessed you must be to be able to live in Jerusalem."


    It was a moment of transcendent revelation to me. Truly, I should feel fortunate and blessed to live in Jerusalem. The customs officer confirmed a truism to me that, like other truisms in life, I sometimes tend not to remember and concentrate on.


    I live in a very special place at a very special time. I have an opportunity granted to me that was denied to generations of my more worthy ancestors. I should savor and appreciate this opportunity and not treat it in a cavalier or mundane fashion. The Jewish past has an opportunity to currently live with and through me. There is responsibility carried with this opportunity.


    The Talmud asks: "Why are the hot springs baths of Tiberias not located in Jerusalem?" Why are the great and tasty fruits of the Ginossar area not grown in Jerusalem?"


    The Talmud responds: "So that no one should ascend to Jerusalem for the sweet fruits or for the hot baths. Rather, one ascends to Jerusalem for the sake of Jerusalem itself."


    JERUSALEM is its own attraction. It does not rely upon natural wonders, outstanding weather or unusual surroundings for its attraction. It is holy, mysterious, the soul of Jewish history and longing. The rabbis taught us that there is a heavenly Jerusalem perched over the earthly Jerusalem. In order to truly appreciate the earthly Jerusalem one must also be able to glimpse the heavenly Jerusalem as well.


    To see Jerusalem as a piece of real estate, a place on the map, is not to see it at all, let alone appreciate its role in Judaism and Jewish life and thought. The driving force behind Zionism, even its most secular format, was the hunger of the Jewish people for Jerusalem. Jerusalem was the emotional battery that charged all of the movement of the return to Zion by Jews in the 19th and 20th centuries. The earthly Jerusalem with all of its wonders and problems, greatness and shortcomings, is a product of seeing the heavenly Jerusalem with eyes of tears and hope.


    Nehemiah built the walls of Jerusalem at the beginning of the Second Temple period with one hand on the sword and the second one on the building locks. But Midrash records that his eyes were always looking heavenward at the heavenly Jerusalem.


    THE CAPITAL'S diplomatic fate is a hot topic of conversation these days. The people who claim to represent our best interests regarding the city apparently only see the earthly Jerusalem. In their practicality they have become wildly impractical. There is no way for a body to survive once its heart has been broken asunder.


    There has never been a Jewish power in our history that contemplated willingly ceding Jerusalem or any part of it to others, especially to sworn enemies who denigrate our faith and question our right to exist. It is the complete disregard, whether out of ignorance or ideology, of the heavenly Jerusalem that brings one to compromise the very existence of the earthly Jerusalem, a Jerusalem that we should feel so blessed and appreciative to control.


    A friend of mine summed up the matter when he told me this story about his aged father who had just come to Israel on aliya in his eightieth year. The son settled the father in a very comfortable senior citizen residence in the coastal part of the country. But after two months the father insisted on relocating to Jerusalem. He said: "I have not waited for 80 years to finally come to the Land of Israel and not to live in Jerusalem."


    We see the traffic jams, the torn-up streets, the problems of living in a metropolis that is still developing. That is the earthly Jerusalem. But the heavenly Jerusalem resonates in our souls and hearts and that is what makes life in the earthly Jerusalem so meaningful and important.


    How can it be otherwise?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Fenris View Post
    This rabbi was my high school principal. It was a privilege.
    The earthly Jerusalem with all of its wonders and problems, greatness and shortcomings, is a product of seeing the heavenly Jerusalem with eyes of tears and hope.
    That right there says a more in half a sentence than many can say in paragraphs. Hope of that heavenly Jerusalem is what pushes us to continue on, in despite of the worldly shortcomings.

    You had a very wise principal!
    Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
    Not second or third, but first.
    Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
    when He is the source of all hope,
    when His love is received and freely given,
    holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
    will all other things be added unto to you.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Fenris View Post
      This rabbi was my high school principal. It was a privilege.
      Hey... what are your thoughts on the heavenly Jerusalem? Curious as to how you view that being Jewish.


      Visit our new website
      ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

      A.W. Tozer said,
      "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

      GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

      Comment


      • #4
        I don't know much about a heavenly Jerusalem. But supposedly there is a heavenly temple that will be placed upon the temple mount in the messianic era. Since it will be created by God it will never be destroyed, unlike the first two.

        Comment


        • #5
          Would you mind telling me your understanding of the Messianic era?


          Visit our new website
          ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

          A.W. Tozer said,
          "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

          GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

          Comment


          • #6
            Of course.

            The Jews will return to Israel: "And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12 and numerous other places)

            The Temple will be rebuilt: .."I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27 among others)

            There will be universal peace: "..they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)

            Everyone will acknowledge God
            : "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23 and elsewhere)

            How does this square with the Christian concept of the Second Coming?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Fenris View Post
              Of course.

              The Jews will return to Israel: "And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12 and numerous other places)

              The Temple will be rebuilt: .."I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27 among others)

              There will be universal peace: "..they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)

              Everyone will acknowledge God
              : "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23 and elsewhere)

              How does this square with the Christian concept of the Second Coming?
              It would vary depending on the persons eschatology... but that shouldn't surprise you!

              With those that believe in the literal 1000 year rule and reign of Christ on earth... it would match perfectly for the most part. I for one do believe in the literal 1000 year reign of Christ so it squares well with me. I'd like to share some of that with you but it would likely just bring about a bunch of argument which I'm not interested in participating in. I've never been one to spend a lot of time arguing the End Time events because honestly... I figure there is so much that we can only speculate on until we're actually in that time. But shoot... maybe it's time to put that old habit away and just lay it out. I figure we are getting close to that time so in for a penny... in for a pound.

              Let me start working that... I am curious as to what you would think about it.


              Visit our new website
              ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

              A.W. Tozer said,
              "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

              GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ProjectPeter View Post
                It would vary depending on the persons eschatology... but that shouldn't surprise you!
                Yeah, I should have expected than answer!

                With those that believe in the literal 1000 year rule and reign of Christ on earth... it would match perfectly for the most part.
                Interesting. I wonder how those who believe otherwise interpret the scripture involved.

                I for one do believe in the literal 1000 year reign of Christ so it squares well with me. I'd like to share some of that with you but it would likely just bring about a bunch of argument which I'm not interested in participating in. I've never been one to spend a lot of time arguing the End Time events because honestly... I figure there is so much that we can only speculate on until we're actually in that time.
                You are in good company with that opinion: The Jewish sage Maimonides said much the same thing!

                Let me start working that... I am curious as to what you would think about it.
                I am curious what you're going to tell me!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Fenris View Post
                  Yeah, I should have expected than answer!

                  Interesting. I wonder how those who believe otherwise interpret the scripture involved.
                  Many believe that all of the prophecy in the Old Testament has already been fulfilled. Much of it with Christ and then finished in 70 AD. Some believe even all of the prophecy... both old and new Testament... have been fulfilled. That latter is a much smaller camp though.

                  You are in good company with that opinion: The Jewish sage Maimonides said much the same thing!
                  I think Daniel may have said it first or at least officially. Remember in that last chapter... Daniel wanted to understand that mystery but was told by the angel... not for you to know Daniel. When it was time to be known... it'll be known (my paraphrase )

                  Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.
                  8 As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, "My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?"
                  9 And he said, "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.
                  10 "Many will be purged, purified and refined; but the wicked will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.
                  11 "And from the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
                  12 "How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!
                  13 "But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age."


                  I am curious what you're going to tell me!
                  I'll give you some basic on it... then I am going to copy it in my blog. I actually started a new section the other day about my eschatology. Like I said... never been one to debate it much because I think that's the problem that so many have today. Over the years they've followed teachers and studied something on their own and have drawn their conclusion a bit prematurely. It wasn't time for that revelation yet. That being said... I'm figuring we're nearing that time so there have been some good teaching come from some folk of late. I call it good anyway because I agree with it... but I suppose that too stands to reason!


                  Visit our new website
                  ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

                  A.W. Tozer said,
                  "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

                  GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ProjectPeter View Post
                    Many believe that all of the prophecy in the Old Testament has already been fulfilled. Much of it with Christ and then finished in 70 AD. Some believe even all of the prophecy... both old and new Testament... have been fulfilled. That latter is a much smaller camp though.
                    Ah. Interesting, interesting.

                    I think Daniel may have said it first or at least officially. Remember in that last chapter... Daniel wanted to understand that mystery but was told by the angel... not for you to know Daniel. When it was time to be known... it'll be known (my paraphrase )
                    Yes, he did speak of the end time being concealed. Maimonides says in his laws of kings:

                    All these and similar matters cannot be [clearly] known by man until they occur, for they are undefined in the words of the prophets. Even the Sages have no established tradition regarding these matters, beyond what is implied by the verses; hence there is a divergence of opinion among them.

                    In any case, neither the sequence of these events nor their precise details are among the fundamental principles of the faith. One should not occupy himself at length with the aggadot and midrashim that deal with these and similar matters, nor should he deem them of prime importance, for they bring one to neither the awe nor the love [of G‑d].

                    Similarly, one should not try to calculate the appointed time [for the coming of Moshiach]. Our Sages declared (Sanhedrin 97b): "May the spirits of those who attempt to calculate the final time [of Moshiach's coming] expire!" Rather, one should await [his coming] and believe in the general conception of the matter, as we have explained.




                    I'll give you some basic on it... then I am going to copy it in my blog. I actually started a new section the other day about my eschatology. Like I said... never been one to debate it much because I think that's the problem that so many have today. Over the years they've followed teachers and studied something on their own and have drawn their conclusion a bit prematurely. It wasn't time for that revelation yet. That being said... I'm figuring we're nearing that time so there have been some good teaching come from some folk of late. I call it good anyway because I agree with it... but I suppose that too stands to reason!
                    Yes, by all means, please share!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Fenris View Post
                      Ah. Interesting, interesting.

                      Yes, he did speak of the end time being concealed. Maimonides says in his laws of kings:

                      All these and similar matters cannot be [clearly] known by man until they occur, for they are undefined in the words of the prophets. Even the Sages have no established tradition regarding these matters, beyond what is implied by the verses; hence there is a divergence of opinion among them.

                      In any case, neither the sequence of these events nor their precise details are among the fundamental principles of the faith. One should not occupy himself at length with the aggadot and midrashim that deal with these and similar matters, nor should he deem them of prime importance, for they bring one to neither the awe nor the love [of G‑d].

                      Similarly, one should not try to calculate the appointed time [for the coming of Moshiach]. Our Sages declared (Sanhedrin 97b): "May the spirits of those who attempt to calculate the final time [of Moshiach's coming] expire!" Rather, one should await [his coming] and believe in the general conception of the matter, as we have explained.




                      Yes, by all means, please share!
                      Okay... I will start bit by bit. I'll ask a favor of folks too. Even though you may disagree with my end times belief... that's cool... just understand that I am not going to debate it with you in this thread. You can refute it and whatever if that helps you get through the day and all. Just don't expect any rebuttal on my part. That isn't my goal here... it's simply what I believe.

                      Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts.
                      2 And by the seventh day God completed His work which He had done; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
                      3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

                      Psalms 90:4 For a thousand years in Thy sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night.

                      2 Peter 3:8 ¶But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
                      9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
                      10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.


                      God created the earth and everything on it in six days. On the Seventh Day God rested. Since the beginning, God has began a pattern that we see throughout the Scripture. Six days of work... rest on the Sabbath.

                      As much as it might pain some folks to ponder... God also rest on the Sabbath. Does that mean God rest every "seven literal days?" I'm thinking not and these two passages by David and Peter explain something that I think mystery revealed among statements that for years seemed to be hyperbole simply stating "a long time period."

                      This used to be known as the "7 Day Theory" although I am long beyond the point of counting it theory. In other words... God created the earth and all in it over a six day period of time (be it literal or six thousand years is not relevant).

                      From the time of start of the genealogy of Adam to the period of Christ we have 4000 years (1 day at 1000 years= 4 days). From the time of Christ to today we are at 2000 years (1 day at 1000 years= 2 days) and this would bring us somewhere near the end of the sixth day. This would mean that God's day of rest is near should this pan out to be mystery revealed and not simply theory.

                      Now... to what was revealed to John.

                      Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
                      2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
                      3 and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.


                      This is when God will rest again. His enemy, Satan, can no longer operate because he is bound for that 1000 years. Satan will no longer deceive the nations and Christ Himself will reign on the earth.

                      That is the basic idea of the seven day pattern that I see. There are other things as well that I think bolster this in a major way and I'll share them in another post.


                      Visit our new website
                      ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

                      A.W. Tozer said,
                      "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

                      GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ProjectPeter View Post
                        God created the earth and everything on it in six days. On the Seventh Day God rested. Since the beginning, God has began a pattern that we see throughout the Scripture. Six days of work... rest on the Sabbath.

                        As much as it might pain some folks to ponder... God also rest on the Sabbath. Does that mean God rest every "seven literal days?" I'm thinking not and these two passages by David and Peter explain something that I think mystery revealed among statements that for years seemed to be hyperbole simply stating "a long time period."

                        This used to be known as the "7 Day Theory" although I am long beyond the point of counting it theory. In other words... God created the earth and all in it over a six day period of time (be it literal or six thousand years is not relevant).
                        Not too much for me to disagree with there. The rabbis actually surmised that the maximum time for the coming of the messiah would be 6000 years after Creation for the same reasons that you listed.

                        The fact that we have seen the recreation of the state of Israel and the ingathering of the Jewish exiles from more than 100 countries, as prophesied, should tell us that the end is very nearly here.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Okay... now for some other interesting passages!

                          The parables of Jesus are about His kingdom and how we are to enter. The simplicity of the parables are important and one must understand the simple first. I do not believe that God will reveal any mystery until first the simple is understood. But that being said... there is mystery in much of the writings.

                          An example can be found in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Jesus is asked... who is my neighbor. This was after making it clear that the Law and Prophets can be simply summed up in Love God with all your heart, soul and mind and of equal importance, love your neighbor as you love yourself. In this parable it is commonly excepted that Jesus is the one portrayed as the good Samaritan. A man is beaten and left in a ditch by robbers. He bings the man with oil and wine (Spirit and blood) and takes the man to an innkeeper (his ministers) and he pays the innkeeper 2 denarii telling the innkeeper to care for him until he returns. What was 2 denarii? It was simply two days wages. Look at the passage in Matthew for confirmation.

                          Matthew 20:9 "And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius.
                          10 "And when those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; and they also received each one a denarius.
                          11 "And when they received it, they grumbled at the landowner,
                          12 saying, `These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.´
                          13 "But he answered and said to one of them, `Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius?
                          14 `Take what is yours and go your way, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.


                          Another example... what Jesus told Herod.

                          Luke 13:32 And He said to them, "Go and tell that fox, `Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.´
                          33 "Nevertheless I must journey on today and tomorrow and the next day; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem.


                          Today and tomorrow (2000 years) I will work (through my body) performing healings and casting out devils... and on the 3rd day... I will finish what I have to do on the 3rd day (seventh day).

                          1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
                          24 then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
                          25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
                          26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
                          27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
                          28 And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all.


                          After Satan is loosed for that short season and then cast into the lake of fire... the last enemy abolished is death. The end of all when Satan is cast into the lake and judgment is complete.

                          And just for you... some Old Testament. Hosea 6:1 "Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.

                          Hosea 6:1 "Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.
                          2 "He will revive us after two days; He will raise us up on the third day That we may live before Him.
                          3 "So let us know, let us press on to know the LORD. His going forth is as certain as the dawn; And He will come to us like the rain, Like the spring rain watering the earth."


                          It is during that third day when God's beloved will be revived and you will know that Jesus is Lord and Israel will be healed. It will be as rain on Georgia's parched earth. You know I have to go there... always going to try! There is more if you are interested.


                          Visit our new website
                          ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

                          A.W. Tozer said,
                          "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

                          GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Fenris View Post
                            Not too much for me to disagree with there. The rabbis actually surmised that the maximum time for the coming of the messiah would be 6000 years after Creation for the same reasons that you listed.

                            The fact that we have seen the recreation of the state of Israel and the ingathering of the Jewish exiles from more than 100 countries, as prophesied, should tell us that the end is very nearly here.
                            That's cool... didn't know that. But shoot... it makes so much sense to me. God created it in six... He works on the seven day principle. To us... 1000 years is a time span we cannot even begin to fathom. But to God... it is but a day. I think of the time when man lived that long and it is amazing to even ponder. I think the insaneness of it all is why so many people can't take the first 11 chapters of Genesis as literal. It just bugs them out to a point where it has to be some sort of fairy tale or some sort of story to make a point... a fable if you will.

                            But interesting that there are Rabbi's who think the same.


                            Visit our new website
                            ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

                            A.W. Tozer said,
                            "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

                            GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I am doing something that I have never done before and that is asking everyone else to allow me the opportunity to share this with Fenris without it being a debate on Eschatology. If you have a problem with this then please post in Chat to Mod's. If you want to comment to the original post then please do that. Just don't pick apart my words at this point in time... it will just take the thread where it really doesn't need to go and that serves no purpose.


                              Visit our new website
                              ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

                              A.W. Tozer said,
                              "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

                              GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

                              Comment

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